Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Ekimp on March 20, 2023, 05:43:34 PM
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In silversmithing, there is a technique called Granulation where small silver spheres are fused to a substrate like this: https://www.lot-art.com/auction-lots/Lois-Hill-Sterling-Silver-Granulation-Motif-Earrings-for-Non-Pierced-Ears/itmg712685-loi_hill_silver-28.8.20-ebth
Does anyone know anything about a similar process used in antique glass as a surface decoration (but not moulding for a similar effect) and what it’s called or who might have used it - possibly France or Bohemia?
There is this for modern “fused glass”. This sort of thing but thinking of something used on 19th century vessels to decorate panels.
https://www.daedalianglassstudios.com/product/fused-glass-spheres/
Thanks
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Sounds like coralene.
John
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Thanks. I was looking at some of that the other day and should have remembered. That does look like the silver granulation technique.
I wonder, does the term Coraline apply to larger grades too? I was looking for something with a ball diameter of around 4 to 6mm, infilling a geometric panel. Coraline perfectly matches what I described but should have been more specific on size.
I’ll have a search but suspect I’ll just get the small grade stuff.
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jewelled? beaded?
Are they red?
m
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Thanks for the suggestions, I thought it might be a known technique with a recognised name, I’ve not seen it before, I’ll have another look.
Not red, it’s on an entirely white opaline vase, also with some gilding. Reading some of your posts on opaline I think it is French as the opaline looks grainy and it has a nice polished pontil. The area with stuck on balls looks a bit like frog spawn floating at the surface of a pond (but white).
I was trying to investigate myself first for fun :) but not getting far so will probably post some photos soon, see if anyone recognises it.
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is it an old fashioned vase shape? Not sure I can recall any French makers who may have used a technique like this but it's difficult guessing ;D I'd have thought more Schachtenbach or Josephinenhutte maybe if it is an old fashioned type shape.
If it's a more contemporary shape then a different chemical composition may have been used to create the white opaline. It might cause it to look more grainy. There's also the thought that crizzling can cause a bit of a grainy look iirc :-X
m
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Yes, not easy guessing without photo but wanted to have a go before being handed the whole answer ;D
I was thinking older, sometime 2nd half of 19th century. The shape is Thistle like, or like a Médicis vase without the stem.
I know what you mean about the crizzling as I had some and check for that now. I was surprised that the crizzling was quite subtle and it was hard to see what was actually going on.
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Here is the subject of my query, I’ve not found anything like the ball decoration yet. I looked at Schachtenbach and Josephinenhutte thanks, and could see it being Schachtenbach. Or maybe French?
Shame the gilding has worn but it’s natural to hold it where the gilding is applied over the ribs, so not surprising.
It is mould blown, then the balls have been stuck on between the ribs. I struggled to capture the fine grainy look of the opaline. Seven inches tall and feels heavy.
Anyone seen similar applied decoration before? Thanks.
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That's lovely. Beautifully finished base large pontil mark?
Not seen anything like it that I can recall but think the bubbles are part of the mold and it was blown into a mold with that design. Feels French :) Maybe Baccarat? They made some white opaline pieces in a what is referred to as a pineapple mold. Had a similar feel so they may be worth a look?
The straight contemporary looking foot/stand reminds me of some Saint-Louis pieces as well. I think it's French.
edited to add - none of the Baccarat pieces I could see have this straight side foot though. mmm. Found this yellow piece which has a straight sided foot:
https://www.proantic.com/en/1086209-rare-bottle-in-yellow-opaline-baccarat-pineapple-model-xixth-napoleon-iii-period.html#
How big is it by the way?
m
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Looks moulded to me also. Can you feel faint indents on the inside? I think I would go for French too
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Saint-Louis :)
https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/308258-c1860-saint-louis-pair-of-opaline-glass?in=activity
(although have to say there is no reference source for that - but if right, I'm pleased the shape of the foot reminded me of Saint-Louis :) )
ooh look here: your lucky find Ekimp!
https://www.proantic.com/en/display.php?id=461400
This blue version has also come up but no further details:
https://www.selency.nl/product/KUVS5JCY/saint-louis-vase-granada-in-crystal-opaline-1845-1865.html
reference source needed though?
m
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Thanks both, that’s great M! I had better look after it :D
I wasn’t expecting something quite so soon…now I wish I’d looked harder :) Looks promising for Saint-Louis, presumably there’ll be a reference somewhere but that’s excellent, thanks very much.
I was sure it wasn’t moulded but did consider it as I bent a piece of wire to poke in the top so I could feel what the internal surface felt like. You can feel where the ribs are but under the balls it felt completely smooth, plus they looked so random. You are both right though - the bubbles are moulded - one of the panels on mine matches the pattern on the collectors weekly link. I thought it was a new technique ;D
The pontil mark is very nicely finished, can’t see any marks on it with naked eye. It is also quite deep. The vase is 7 inches tall and just over 0.5kg.
Interesting that none of the others have gilding, I wonder if it was worn and then remove…I did think it might be better without.
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I think I saw a reference to 1862-1870 ish catalogue but I can't find where I saw that and I couldn't find a catalogue either. But it just caught my eye somewhere iirc so might be worth searching for?
I definitely wouldn't remove the gilding. But that's me ;D It's well over 100 years old and having that gilding shows what the design would have looked like. I should think most of the others will be missing theirs unless they did a plain version as well.
In my head I also keep in mind that in other cases there is the situation that sometimes molds were sold on to other makers. It might be that the original version would have been say enamelled or gilded, but that the new owner/factory didn't do that. I always think having as much original decoration as possible is a good thing :)
As an example, some of the early 1840s (?they might have been from the 1830s actually) molds from Saint-Louis were sold to IVIMA I think it was in Portugal. They made the items in very different colours to the early colours made by Saint-Louis.
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This is not the same but style/type along similar lines and gives a catalogue number and year 1870 for another molded vase.
I think a getting a good reference source is important. And I don't know how helpful they are if you write to them.
https://www.catawiki.com/en/l/39285721-st-louis-antique-blue-opaline-vase-glass#gallery&gid=1&pid=19
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Ok thanks - hopefully Saint Louis - I’ll leave it for a bit before trying to contact them incase I stumble across something :)
I looked on the cmog, they have several Saint Louis catalogues but mainly later and I didn’t notice anything similar, there are not many vases anyway.
Interesting what you say about the moulds, pleased mine still has gilding! I read on one topic how an item was considered to be a “wreck” due to worn gilding, which seemed a bit harsh. I’ll not remove the gilding but it’s a bit inconvenient not being able to handle it properly. It would be quite tactile otherwise :D
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The owner of this site has the title very boldly stated that it's a Saint-Louis vase. So hopefully the owner is correct fingers crossed.
https://www.proantic.com/en/display.php?id=461400
Gilding is difficult. But I like to have my items out and about and not always stuck away in a cabinet. Some are because they don't fit in with anything and I bought them because they're unusual/rare. But others are on display because they look good as part of a group of other items so I use them. Otherwise what's the point? I do try not to touch them too much but they're part of my house so they get cleaned (occasionally!)
m
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Did you see the bottle in a similar style from the same seller, that is Baccarat? https://www.proantic.com/en/1086209-rare-bottle-in-yellow-opaline-baccarat-pineapple-model-xixth-napoleon-iii-period.html
Looks like the book Les Opalines by Christine Vincendeau might be worth reading judging by the page the seller shows for the Baccarat piece.
You would think if they had a reference for Saint Louis they would mention it.
I’ve only got the two pieces with gilding that I’m bothered about so not too much of a problem, I’m more worried about cracking the screw lid on my other bit!
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Found a reference :D
There is one here:
https://cristalstlouis.com/saint_louis_vase_grenade_perles_en_opaline_de_cristal_bleu_1845_1865_napoleoniii.html
Translating their description they say ‘This model can be found at the Saint-Louis Museum "La grande
Halle" in another colour.’
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I did see that but have been trawling through the photos of the museum collection - there aren't that many available online - and couldn't see it. And I'm always wary that they meant exactly the same model. Or did they mean they thought it looked similar. Mind you there's a lot of glass there:
https://www.saint-louis.com/en/edito_article_museum
I also saw the yellow Baccarat and the Les Opalines reference - but I think if yours had been in the book the seller would have referenced it. So assume it isn't.
You could try contacting Saint-Louis. I don't know if you'd get a response ... but you might?
m
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Ah, yes. Hopefully if there is one in the museum it won’t be too difficult for them to check, so hopefully they might respond. Thanks for looking.
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Interestingly, this is a Baccarat reference but I think the shape is ... pretty much the same apart from no bubbly decoration between the lobes and foot width seems to be a bit wider than yours. Correct base as well
Scroll down to Seite 15 von 17
Pressglas-Korrespondenz 2103-3
https://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2013-3w-vogt-bacc-louis-opalin-vasen.pdf
See Number 20 on the page of Vases de Fantaisie (Suite) from MB Baccarat 1865 Planche 38
So possibly yours may date around that period?
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ooh I've found you a reference !!!
https://pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2005-2w-mannoni-opalines.pdf
Seite 131 von 376
Yellow flacon with same design of body as your vase.
Quote here direct from Pressglas-korrespondenz - their source is Vincendeau 1998, S.88
'Abb. 2005-2/170
“Flacon de cheminée tricolore ... en opaline jaune et blanche pâte de riz, décor moulé par soufflage [form-geblasen],
dit à grenade éclatée ... serpent s’enroulant autour du col
...“
aus Vincendeau 1998, S. 88
St. Louis, Frankreich, 1845-1855 '
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That’s great! …and that book looked quite expensive :D amazing what there is available online.
Thanks for your efforts finding this.
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You're welcome:) Thanks are to Mr Siegmar Geiselberger for the amazing information in the Pressglas-korrespondenz.
And if you translate the last paragraph on Seite 132 here and then also the information on the first few paragraphs from Seite 133, it explains very well about pate de riz and the Bohemian version of this type of glass and the difference in compound in the melt. Interesting! :
https://pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2005-2w-mannoni-opalines.pdf
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I'm genuinely surprised at the date 1845-1855. That's amazing.
m
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Yes, pleased with that :)
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Not wanting to pee on the parade but that kind of assumes Vincendeau is correct; 1998 is a long while ago in the knowledge business, so unless she had access to a catalogue...
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It does ... and it is. I understood that book is the most recent authority on French opalines. I don't have the book though so I'm not sure what museum access or reference sources Vincendeau used. That said, Cristallerie Saint-Louis and Baccarat are both still going concerns so presumably have archives and recipes.
I have Baguiers et Verres a Boire (Darnis) which is recent but it's goblets, tazzas and little tumblers so not covered in there and nothing like the vase to compare.
Launay Hautin covers up to 1841 on Pressglas-korrespondenz
m
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The Corning reference Les Opalines and Christine Vincendeau on these:
https://www.cmog.org/artwork/2-opaline-vases
The more recent book by Leon Darnis is also really interesting. Covers pieces from late 1700s to mid 1800s. It shows many of the very early opalines from Montcenis and Bercy etc as well as a really broad range of colours from all the French makers - tazzas and tumblers and some goblets.
The density of the glass is added to each description as well as noting whether with or without lead. Also talks about the fluorescence colour of the glass by each maker. My French is non-existent so it's hard to translate the information in the book though. I think it's been used to attempt to categorise them into which maker they came from. Some pieces are identified. Others state 'Attribution'. Hundreds of good photographs.
m
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And some more an interesting information here see Seite 6 von 17 - needs to be translated. Re the Amic, Manoni and Vincendeau books.
https://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2013-3w-vogt-bacc-louis-opalin-vasen.pdf
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Interestingly, this is a Baccarat reference but I think the shape is ... pretty much the same apart from no bubbly decoration between the lobes and foot width seems to be a bit wider than yours. Correct base as well
Scroll down to Seite 15 von 17
Pressglas-Korrespondenz 2103-3
https://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2013-3w-vogt-bacc-louis-opalin-vasen.pdf
See Number 20 on the page of Vases de Fantaisie (Suite) from MB Baccarat 1865 Planche 38
So possibly yours may date around that period?
Came across this again on a different PK. I think the shape is remarkably similar to your vase. I know it doesn't have the bubbly bit but I'm just curious. Saint Louis and Baccarat did do a few shapes the same in earlier catalogues. By this time I don't think they were operating a joint venture any more but it's interesting to see the shape comparison. It could read 165mm in height? how tall is yours?
m
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Sorry, been away :) My vase is about 175mm tall.
I did previously look at that vase no.20 in your reply above. Although it looks a similar overall shape, I think the moulding of the bulbous section is quite different, not just the lack of the balls. It looks like each segment of the moulding on no.20 is identical and of a plain convex section, mine uses two different shaped segments, the segment without balls is a ribbed section.
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And some more an interesting information here see Seite 6 von 17 - needs to be translated. Re the Amic, Manoni and Vincendeau books.
https://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2013-3w-vogt-bacc-louis-opalin-vasen.pdf
From reading the PK article, it looks like Vincendeau 1998 is a rework of Amic 1952. The article seems only to have good things to say about the content of Amic 1952. Looks like that was based on sample books from Baccarat and Saint-Louis, which are hard to access.
I can’t see a reason to trust Amic and Vincendeau any less than any other reputable author on glass.
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In this link, you can see the same photograph from Vincendeau as shown in the PK article linked in reply 21 but with the original French annotation.
https://www.1stdibs.com/en-gb/furniture/more-furniture-collectibles/collectibles-curiosities/books/les-opalines-christine-vincendeau-first-edition/id-f_6444953/?modal=intlWelcomeModal
French annotation:
Flacon de cheminée tricolore et son bouchon fleur en opaline jaune et blanche « pâte de riz»
décor moule par soufflage, dit « à grenade éclatée», décor rapporté en opaline bleue figurant un serpent s'enroulant autour du col au bord ondulé (doc. Compagnie des cristalleries de Saint-Louis). Manufacture de Saint-Louis.
Années 1845-1855.
Annotation Google translated:
Tricolor chimney flask and its flower stopper in yellow and white opaline “rice paste”
decoration molded by blowing, called "exploded pomegranate", decoration added in blue opaline depicting a snake winding around the neck with a wavy edge (doc. Compagnie des cristalleries de Saint-Louis). Manufacture of Saint-Louis.
Years 1845-1855.
Presumably “doc. Compagnie des cristalleries de Saint-Louis” is the original source, a document from the company?
For reference, Google translating the annotation from PK:
"Tricolor chimney flask ... in yellow and white opaline rice paste, decoration molded by blowing [form-geblasen], said with exploded pomegranate ... snake winding around the neck aus Vincendeau 1998, S. 88
St. Louis, Frankreich, 1845-1855
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Sorry, been away :) My vase is about 175mm tall.
I did previously look at that vase no.20 in your reply above. Although it looks a similar overall shape, I think the moulding of the bulbous section is quite different, not just the lack of the balls. It looks like each segment of the moulding on no.20 is identical and of a plain convex section, mine uses two different shaped segments, the segment without balls is a ribbed section.
Agree with you. I had another closer look after I'd posted it and thought the same about the segments. Apologies for the diversion :)
On the reference point, I also think if Vincendeau gives the reference as 'doc. Saint Louis', then it reads that she has had it corroborated at/by Saint Louis.
On another link one of the sellers had also stated it was in the Grand Halle at Saint Louis. I couldn't find it in the pictures online but there are very very few and the museum has a huge collection of pieces.
m
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That’s good then, thanks.
Out of interest, I came across a photo of a group of opaline items, it looked like the vase in the middle might be the No.20 vase. https://www.kapandji-morhange.com/lot/82336/7023302