Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: thewingedsphinx on July 24, 2023, 07:36:04 PM
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A nice Ruby Red 14x10cm cut glass bowl with severe cut foot and polished out Pontil which reminded me of early English or Irish glass but my research found a similar purple bowl in the Bohemian book Farbenglas II with similar cut panels and attributed to Harrach unfortunately it does not show the base. Does anyone know of any Harrach pieces with a cut base and polished out Pontil, thanks very much
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no but two are shown in the From Neuwelt to the Whole World book, one page 122 and one page 123.
The item on page 122 is described as 11cm high and 'Bowl for bread'.
It's ruby overlay (coppery) over clear, panel cut around the foot and with tiny decorative repetitive cut to clear lenses around it the whole piece surrounded by two bands much like the little jugs we;ve just been discussing elsewhere on the board and in a similar way to the raised bands on the bowl on page 127 Farbenglas II.
As part of the description they say
'An object recorded (including drawing) in the glassworks invoice book in 1845 is almost identical in shape'.
dated before 1845.
The other one is blue opaline gilded and with underplate and is 8.8cm tall. I have a smaller version of this.
I think yours is Bohemian. My gilded jug in the shape we've been discussing elsewhere on the board also has a detailed star/ridge cut base with a polished pontil mark in the centre ... and a cut and gilded rim to the jug.
Lots of cutting on the base of bechers during this period as well. Very detailed and intricate:
example here:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=63624.0;attach=196563;image
jug example we've just been discussing elsewhere here as mine has the same cut base as this one as well - see base photo:
https://www.bukowskis.com/en/auctions/F171/318-a-russian-glass-sauce-jug
Also example of a clear deckelpokal on page 82 with similar star/ridge cut base and with what looks to be a polished circular centre in a similar way to the jug above and my jug and your bowl.
Very hard to see on this example as to whether the ridge cutting around the base continues onto the base in the same way as your bowl but it does appear to from the photo - and has a polished out circular centre that has been engraved with lettering:
https://antikes-glas.de/neuwelt/deckelbecher-diversen-schliffdekor-nordboehmen-oder-schlesien-1825-p-1732.html
Agree the one in Farbenglas has similarities with your bowl. It's much bigger but has the two circular dips cut in the handles and panel cutting. Also a different colour though as is violet glass - gorgeous colour that.
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Thanks M for that info, I’m still saving up for “From Neuwelt to the Whole World” book, it’s expensive. There are also some similar colour examples of glass in the Farbenglas glas books. It’s a nice unusual colour which I think is In line with Bohemia.
Thanks Mike
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In the Johann Meyr 1832-1841 catalogue available from the Corning Museum, there is a very similar design, no. 306, shown on page 9. It is faceted with two bands of horizontal cuts. Page 10 shows available base designs, no.323 looks like your base.
https://www.cmog.org/library/formen-preise-von-glaserzeugnissen-der-meyrschen-glasfabriken-adolf-leonorenhein-boehmen (Click on “download”)
I’m sure I’ve seen similar items when browsing other catalogues though. For example, Stevens and Williams are making the same basic faceted shape but with a different band of cutting in 1896, page 5 no.23014, they call them “Ice Buckets” (see also “Ice Pails”).
https://www.cmog.org/library/miscellaneous-trade-cards-advertisements
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I think the Stevens and Williams link is a red herring perhaps. The example from OP is an ice pail shape in a way but it is squat rather than tall like the S&W examples which presumably are a lot bigger.
The J Meyr 1832-1841 catalogue is a good find for dating shape and base cutting example.
Farbenglas II page 136 discusses the extent of red and pink glass manufacture from trade exhibitions dating from 1828 to 1845 and it seems red glass was extremely popular with numerous makers showing examples at those exhibitions in that period.
It does say on that page:
'Reports have been handed down that Harrach, in the year '1828 was the first to present the ruby plated glass' (Neuwirth, Color in Glass l, 1993, p. 12)
Note: By 'plated' it is referring to red cased clear as I understand what is written.
The colour and consistency may be an indicator of maker perhaps? From what I read it wasn't easy to get a consistent good colour initially - with some turning brown - see page 139 Farbenglas ll for an example of a deckelpokal and underplate in a 'liver colored' red from Benedict Vivat, Langerswalde. Pokal dated 'before 1835'.
See by contrast an example of a lidded tankard in ruby glass on page 142 dated 'before 1835' from Count Harrach Glassworks, Neuwelt, where in comparison to the Benedikt Vivat example, the colour is amazing and consistent.
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Thanks Ekimp and M.
The J Meyr 1832-1841 catalogue page 9 looks like a similar match with two sets of triple banding.
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I think the Stevens and Williams link is a red herring perhaps. The example from OP is an ice pail shape in a way but it is squat rather than tall like the S&W examples which presumably are a lot bigger.
Yes, maybe the proportions changed over time like for wine glass rinsers (I think), but similar shapes may have been made by many manufacturers.
Ruby red sounds more marketable than liver red :) I’ll have to get Farbenglas II, I only got Farbenglas I.
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This is interesting, an English 1848 silver butter dish in the same style: https://www.paulbennettonline.com/shop-silver-2/by-period/victorian/19th-century-antique-victorian-sterling-silver-butter-dish-london-1848-renoi-stephens/
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That's lovely. Almost a perfect match for the shape of the original one on the thread.
m
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A nice Ruby Red 14x10cm cut glass bowl with severe cut foot and polished out Pontil which reminded me of early English or Irish glass but my research found a similar purple bowl in the Bohemian book Farbenglas II with similar cut panels and attributed to Harrach unfortunately it does not show the base. Does anyone know of any Harrach pieces with a cut base and polished out Pontil, thanks very much
This is on page 126 of Farbenglas ll and is actually identified as from Count Harrach Glassworks, Neuwelt (Bohemia), before 1839; violet glass.
It is in the Technisches Museum Wien, Inv. Nr TH 82.
Apologies for being pedantic :-[
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Out of interest, another similar silver one (a butter dish) described the shape as being modelled on an antique milk pail.
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A milk pail would be taller than it was wide I think? Aren't these wider than they are tall?
Whatever they're modelled on, it looks to me as though the cut bands are probably meant to replicate some kind of vessel of banded wood. (wine cask, whisky cask, coopered pail etc) but are also a decorative feature to use their cutting techniques.
I think it's possible they're butter dishes and should have lids and underplates.
I can't imagine the size of the one in the Neuwelt book but at 11cm high it doesn't seem huge. They describe that larger one as a bread bowl. The other has no description. Mine is the same shape but much smaller and I thought perhaps a salt.
I suppose it depends how their bread was traditionally served at the time. Different geographical regions, different customs and also a different time period.
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Here is a smaller Salt? With similarities.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285168330011?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338722076&customid=&toolid=10050
Thanks