Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: NevB on July 08, 2024, 05:48:54 PM
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This was a nice find at an antiques fair today. It is the same as the 2426 pattern shown on planche 78 of the 1840 Launay Hautin catalogue except that it has a hexagonal foot instead of a flower shaped one. The description says "Verre Medicis" which seems to be one of Baccarat's ranges and "m. Ecussons" which perhaps could translate as shields or lenses. It is 14cm. tall and has 1/4 moulded into the base which might indicate its volume of 1/4 of a pint.
Apparently during the first part of the 19thC. the French were using a mixture of the metric system and the old system, and a variety of different measures were used.
https://www.glas-musterbuch.de/Launay-Hautin-1840.20+B6YmFja1BJRD0yMCZwcm9kdWN0SUQ9ODE3JnBpZF9wcm9kdWN0PTIwJmRldGFpbD0_.0.html
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Reading through flying free's earlier post I see what appears to be 2 after the B is shown in the 1841 catalogue introduction as "ordinaire pour id", I'm not sure what that indicates. The m before Ecusson is for motif, the word ecusson is related to the English escutcheon.
https://www.glas-musterbuch.de/Launay-Hautin-1841.21+B6YmFja1BJRD0yMSZwcm9kdWN0SUQ9ODE5JnBpZF9wcm9kdWN0PTIxJmRldGFpbD0_.0.html
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It would be more helpful if your photographs showed it profile side on against a white background.
I say that because the foot is not the same design as the one in the catalogue Launay Hautin, so to me it's not the same goblet. Also it looks less squat shaped bowl than the one in the catalogue and where the stem meets the bowl it is different.
There are other makers who made similar designs later in the century I think which is why I would query it until you can find a match for the shape and the foot.
I think it might be better to move this to Glass until it is verified as from Baccarat.
Have you contacted Mr Geiselberger to ask his opinion? or looked through Pressglas Korrespondenz for other options of makers? He has done a lot of research of items that look similar to the catalogue Launay Hautin but turned out not to be from them.
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Thanks m, I've added a photo. It seems to me it's the same pattern as the Baccarat one, if slightly less squat, as far down as the hexagonal ridge around the foot and it's only the shape of the foot that is different. Other pieces of theirs have a hexagonal foot so perhaps it's a variant pattern. Having said that I see what you are saying and I will try to contact Mr. Geiselberger to get his opinion.
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ah right, I can see the ridge where the stem and bowl join now. Thanks.
It's a great colour and probably similar to/the same as one of my green tumblers (both emerald green but different batches it seemed to me as colour differs).
It looks v similar to the colour of my larger tumbler although of course online it's very hard to judge:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=64402.0;attach=237296;image
However, given the difference in the bowl shape and especially the foot I think it's worth contacting Mr Geiselberger to ask his opinion about the foot. I am sure other makers have done similar designs but with different base/foot but equally he might have other views about the date of the piece maybe or something?
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Reading through flying free's earlier post I see what appears to be 2 after the B is shown in the 1841 catalogue introduction as "ordinaire pour id", I'm not sure what that indicates. The m before Ecusson is for motif, the word ecusson is related to the English escutcheon.
https://www.glas-musterbuch.de/Launay-Hautin-1841.21+B6YmFja1BJRD0yMSZwcm9kdWN0SUQ9ODE5JnBpZF9wcm9kdWN0PTIxJmRldGFpbD0_.0.html
It's an Italic 1 after the B I think? Perhaps indicating it was for water. see ' Verres gondole à pied rond ou carré':
https://www.glas-musterbuch.de/Launay-Hautin-1841.21+B6YmFja1BJRD0yMSZwcm9kdWN0SUQ9ODE5JnBpZF9wcm9kdWN0PTIxJmRldGFpbD0_.0.html
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Yes m I couldn't work out if it was a 1 or 2, it appears to have a tail on the bottom which their 1's don't appear to have. I've e-mailed Mr. G. so am hoping for a reply. I still don't know what the "id" stands for.
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It's a 1.
I don't understand your comment about "id" - edit - oh are you reading about the oil decanters? on the descriptions page where it says 'Etrusque pour id.'? The "pour id." means ditto I think. i.e. ditto the comment above it applies to Etrusque model.
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Yes ditto, idem in French apparently, they use it a few times.
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I've had a reply from Mareike Michl at PK, she says she doubts that it is Launay Hautin because of the colour, she doesn't mention Baccarat. She says it could be No.2099 shown in the 1878 Vallerysthal catalogue but the illustration isn't clear, I've not been able to find that catalogue. Another possibility is Villeroy Boch, late 19thC. She's going to pass the photo onto a collector who has done research into this type of glass.
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Thank you for updating this thread. It will be interesting to see which other makers might come to light and the dates you've been given are more where I thought it could be.
m
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The shape is very similar to this decorated enamelled one from Dyatkovo date 1903, however I am not sure (I don't know enough about these to give an informed opinion so best to wait to see if Mr Geiselberger comes back with more information) about the colour of the green being right for them. Scroll down to Seite 4 von 21 Seiten on this link :
https://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2016-2w-peltonen-pokal-russland-1841-1917.pdf
The item also decorated enamelled here on Seite 5 von 16 appears to show the 1/4 on the foot and gives more information:
https://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2014-4w-sg-dyatkovo-pokal-gruen-1900.pdf
I believe from translation from Pressglas Korrespondenz 2014-4, that it says this goblet with 1/4 on the foot is from Dyatkovo date 1903.
You could reply to Mareike Michl at PK and send those two links and ask what they think regarding it being from Dyatkovo given the marks on the base of your goblet.
m
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Thanks m, if you scroll down to Seite 6 on the first link the uranium glass on the left is also very similar to mine, although the stem and foot are slightly different. Maker "probably Maltsov , 1857-ca. 1885", it also has the 1/4 mark moulded into the underside of the foot, from the collection of Bernard Cavalot. Mine is slightly smaller at just under 14cm. and 9cm. I see they also reference the Baccarat 2426 glass and the similarity except for the rim of the foot, all very intriguing.
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In the link there is an explanation about where these glasses have originated depending on the mark. There is a lot of research on PK.
Source: Pressglas Korrespondenz 2014-4
It says
'PK 2014-4, SG: It has now been clarified what the numbers “1/4” pressed into the underside of the foot mean: 4 is the catalogue number of the pressed glass in MB Dyatkovo 1903. There are several pressed glasses with corresponding numbers in the Peltonen collection. It is very unlikely that the Fedorovsky brothers used similar or even identical catalogue numbers. The number “1/4” therefore clearly belongs to Dyatkovo 1903! And the monogram “БФ” definitely belongs to the Fedorovsky brothers / Fjodorovsky [Братья Федоровский]!'
I think Maltsov owned Dyatkovo glass btw.
The item in question is shown on Seite 12/16 here in the catalogue:
https://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2014-4w-sg-dyatkovo-pokal-gruen-1900.pdf
Could you send those links back to Mareike? I'm interested to know what PK say mostly because of the colour of your glass and whether the bowl shape matches.
They reference the Launay Hautin because the designs are very similar but it doesn't say those with this foot are Launay Hautin pieces.
m
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m, I've sent Mareike those two links, lets hope they help. One thing I'm curious about is the explanation that the 4 of the 1/4 mark is a catalogue number, it seems not quite right to me. I have doubts mine is a Russian glass, although pieces turn up in the most unlikely of places, in geographical terms, I think it is more likely French/German.
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The person with the Russian uranium glass goblets referred to in the Pressglas Korrenspondenz was I believe Bernard from our message board based in UK
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I thought it might be.
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It will be interesting to see if there is any further information on these (the info I've found so far in Pressglas Korrespondenz runs from 2008-2014) but to me, the shape of yours is the same as the one in the Dyatkovo catalogue and isn't the same as the one in the Launay Hautin.
m
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I have been wondering about the colour of yours (and also the size as most of the Russian ones seem to be 14,5cm or 15cm but that's another thing to look into). It's a very bluey mint or cool green compared to the yellowy warmer greens of all the ones I've linked to on Pressglas Korrespondenz so far.
However I've now found this on Pressglas Korrespondenz - scroll down to Seite 10 von 41:
https://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2019w-chukanova-maltsov-pokal-1903.pdf
So it is known Fedoroskij was making them in a darker cooler green as well (Kristallfabrik Vokovskij der Brüder Fedorovskij ) but that has a different mark to the base of the foot. It is 15,3cm.
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I've had a reply from Mareike. Roger a collector in Finland who has many Russian glasses has confirmed it is definitely Russian!, but no specific maker. How it travelled to an antiques fair in Berkshire must be an interesting tale. I'll ask the mods to move it.
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Thanks for updating the thread with the reply. I'll take a bow :)
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A big bow m.
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Sorry we don't have a Russia forum here (yet).
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Thanks Anne.
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Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons - I've just spotted this in the Musée des arts et métiers
https://www.arts-et-metiers.net/musee/verre-medicis-moule-larges-ecussons-peints-et-graves-moulures-modernes
15,5cm tall x 10cm - apparently date entered 1853
So it is a different size to yours however the bowl design is the same as yours as is the foot.
Musée des arts et métiers
I still think it's a different shape to yours especially given the piece is bigger than yours and the bowl definitely looks more squat however ...
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I think that would be one of the original Baccarat designs from around 1840. I believe, and Mareike has confirmed it, that the French designs were copied all over Europe. I think there would be lots of variations on the basic design. The rim of the foot on that one also appears to be a downward convex curve, like other similar ones, mine is flat sloping facets.
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Just for accuracy I think the museum have dated it 1851. I believe it entered the collection in 1853 if I'm reading the info correctly.
I know they were made by other makers in similar style at later dates as you say but I'm just interested that that particular 'sideways lens' goblet has a foot like the one on your later goblet produced elsewhere, rather than like the one in the 1840/1841 Launay Hautin catalogue ... but has been identified as Baccarat.
So I'm thinking it's possible the later items from other companies were copying a later design by Baccarat e.g. c.1851,a design where Baccarat had made the foot hexagonal rather than ornate as in the 1840/41 catalogue.
(It had occurred to me years ago looking into these, that it was odd they copied the design of the goblet but not the foot if you see what I mean?)
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There are lots of other pieces in the 1840 catalogue which have a hexagonal foot so I don't see why they couldn't have made mine with a hexagonal foot later. I'd guess it was just a case of changing tastes and others copied the shape that was fashionable at the time.