Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Keith Mick on August 17, 2024, 07:38:44 PM
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Hi.
Found this small carafe on our travels which I recognized as either Whitefriars or Stuart. Having checked online its all a bit confusing. There's one or two examples marked "Stuart England" but also more which are unmarked and claimed as Whitefriars. One is pictured in the Leslie Jackson book which looks to have vertical ribbing which mine doesn't. Are these "Whitefriars" carafe's just miss identified unmarked Stuart examples or did Whitefriars make some without ribbing?
It seems that Whitefriars may have started making things like this around the 1880s, the Stuart versions must have been made into the 1920s to explain the marked examples.
Mine's slightly oval when viewed from below and stands about 18cm high.
Anyone have any thoughts on ID,
Cheers
Keith
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I would vote Whitefriars. comparing the two factories on google images the ring collar and the side embellishments on the Whitefriars glass seems finer than the Stuart glass.
As for the vertical ribbing i'm not sure.
Tim
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a shape usually described as 'leather bottle' design/pattern. I've looked through Jackson but wasn't aware of seeing this shape, but there is one shown in Evans, Ross, Werner (the big book) - page 261 - and the reference is 'catalogue B - 1870s' - unfortunately, the example shown appears to be wheel engraved and the rigaree runs down almost the entire height (starting a little below the waisted neck). No idea if this comes under the heading of Roman, Venetian, or Art Deco - perhaps it's more Venetian, though I've never owned one so speaking entirely from the point of view of the books. As a design, this 'leather bottle' shape seems not to have been a rare pattern in that period - see link here ..........
https://scottishantiques.com/victorian-table-glass/decanters-flasks-carafes/Whitefriars-Leather-Bottle-Glass-Carafe - but have a feeling the shape is ancient - as in hundreds of years ancient.
To the best of my knowedge, W/Fs never marked their glass - as in marked with a stylus, acid or sand blasted etc., but they did apply small paper labels, though whether they did this in the latter part of the C19 I've no idea.
The first Stuart Reg. I can see in 'The Glass Association Blue Book' is December 1908 - but what the item is I haven't a clue - they then follow in infrequent dribbles up to 1920 - 21 when they literally cascade onto the page. What page in Jackson does her example appear?
If you have a Stuart Reg. No. for this design, let me know and I'll check it out to see exactly how the original factory drawing appears - think I'd be very wary of buying one of these without the appropriate wear and other tell-tale signs of the right age.
P.S. in the big book - although the illustration is very small - the vertical rigaree appears uniform in its shape and appearance down its entire length.
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Hi Paul S.
The picture in the Jackson book is on page 30. Not the clearest picture, it may be a slightly different version with a square rim but it does have optic ribbing. The Scottish Antiques one also has the same vertical optic moulding, they give a date of 1880.
I don't have the Wendy Evans book sadly.
If these leather bottle carafe's were produced over such a long period the designs may have varied over time, I just wonder when Stuart began making them and if at least some of the Whitefriars are not really Stuart examples.
Don't have a reg. no, just "Stuart England " marked I think. Out of interest do you know what those early Stuart marks where? I think "Walsh" just used their name.
Cheers
Keith
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thanks, you're correct - I've now seen the bottle in question on page 30 - it may have been the stopper that distracted me :) If you take the whole bottle output of that period this shape appears very infrequently, and looks to be at odds with art nouveau and Venetian - both very curvy - and just possible it owes more of a nod to Dresser and his 'Clutha' designs. Agree, the picture is poor but am assuming the bottle is plain and undecorated, but whatever, this triangular shape seems to be scarce though used possibly more by W/Fs in the latter part of the C19 (and again by them in the 1930s and 40s) than other makers - certainly it's absent from McConnell, though there is some Swedish influence in the C20. Can't say I'm seeing the optic ribbing, or come to that ditto on the Scottish Antiques example either - but then I am old ;-)
This funnel shape may have been produced 'over a long period of time', but within the Victorian period maybe 20 years was the maximum, but correct me if there is some evidence to the contrary - the art nouveau fashion (c. 1880 - 1915) seemed to pervade everything in terms of shape. The 'leather bottle' shape may have been ancient, but it seems to have fallen out of favour in the latter part of the C19 when the Continentals discovered nouveau and everything became curvy.
According to 'British Glass between the wars', the word Stuart was Registered as a Trade Name in 1924, and, apparently, first used on glass in 1926 - subsequently 'Stuart England' was used c. 1926 - 1950, with further variations at later dates - but, as folk have commented at various times, these dates need to be read with some caution.
Are you able to post a picture of the Stuart 'leather bottle' - a marked piece, obviously? I know nothing of Stuart's production of this design - only ever seen and owned the traditional shapes etc., and certainly never owned any really old W/Fs glass.
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just to add ............ as far as the marks go, it may be a bit more complicated than we think - as mentioned a tad earlier, the first Stuart Registered design that I can see in the Blue Book - was 1908 (534388) ............. have just discovered there was another slightly earlier Registration in September 1906 (486685)! However, going on what I've taken out of the books, regarding the date of first use of Stuart marks (1924 or 1926), then presumably these 1908 and 1906 Reg. Designs won't have any backstamps - but I'd still very much like to see the original factory drawings. Reflecting on the general status of this 'leather bottle' design, and the date it appears to have been produced by W/Fs, then it would seem perhaps unusual to have been produced by Stuart twenty years down the line, when nouveau was all the rage. But some assumptions here which never helpful.
If anyone has pix of 486685 and 534388 would be great to see them.
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Hi
The optic moulding is definitely a thing, the Scottish Antiques example mentions it in the write up. Seems like the sort of thing W F did around this period, dip mould and then blow out the shape. Doesn't follow that all of W F examples had it.
Did see a reference to Dresser in relation to this shape while I searched, not sure were now though! Think this cone shape was also briefly popular on British decanters between the wars.
Don't have any pictures myself but if you search "W F leather bottle carafe" Stuart marked examples come up as well. Looks like the early "Stuart England" mark with the wiggly tail coming down off the letter t. Still puts production into the mid 1920s. May be wrong but I don't think this is in the Stuart 1927 catalogue.
The unmarked examples seem very similar to the marked Stuart ones. They are largely hand made things so small variations will occur. Is it possible they were all made by W F and Stuart marked some as their own? Or did Stuart start making a very close copy of a slightly earlier W F design?
Perhaps any Stuart collectors out there may be able to shed some light on this.
Will keep digging, somebody out there may have the answer!
Cheers
Keith
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which 'wars' were these ? ;D ;D - assume that's the 1920s and 1930s? Optic moulding - I've forgotten a lot about these various decorative thingies, but take you word for it that these bottles were so made - all I'm seeing is plain glass. How are these cone shaped bottles made ? - is there a mould involved somewhere along the line - I've forgotten a lot of what I did know.
I'll go and have a look on line with the wording you suggest.
Yes, now seen the 'Stuart with wiggly tail plus ENGLAND, and as you say, this will be post mid 1920s so definitely not Victorian, and I'd imagine this will be an item for which there is a genuine Registered Design No. ............. I shall have to investigate at Kew some time.
Anyway, sorry we're no further forward as to a conclusion of your question.
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Yes, sorry should have said world wars. I know Stuart, Thomas Webb and Webb Corbett all made conical decanters, probably other companies.
Not a expert but my understanding is from the furnace the glass is blown into a small or dip mould which creates the required optic effect. Then after going back in the furnace briefly it would be blown into the full mould which in this case is our smooth cone shape. This has the effect of leaving the outside smooth but the inside still retaining some of the optic effect of the dip mould. Fascinating and mind blowing trying to work out how glass makers produce some of the effects you see.
Another thought occurs, perhaps this type were all Stuart made in 1910s 1920s and only the later ones were marked. Then the unmarked ones were believed to be W F because they made similar things. I've no access to the factory drawings in the Wendy Evans book. Not sure what years are covered or how good the drawings are.
Anyway thanks for your help.
If you come across any info would be interested to know
Keith
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possibly I'm confusing things .............. there may be some C19 W/Fs factory drawings in the 'big book', but what I'd meant by my comments - about drawings - referred only to the Stuart factory drawings that relate directly to their Registered Designs in 1906, 1908 and later ones up to and beyond the 1920, that were submitted to the Board of Trade - the drawings that are located at Kew.
I could be very wrong, but have a feeling that W/Fs didn't submit any drawing to the Board of Trade - meaning that there aren't any W/Fs Registered Designs at all.
I have pix for virtually all Reg. Designs from c. 1840 to end of the C19, but never got around to snapping those after that date - and post 1900 for sure is where you will find the Stuart pix at Kew referring to your conical bottle.
My Reader's Ticket expired some two or three years back, so will need to renew - will of course let you know as and when I find the post 1900 Stuart pix covering this leather bottle design.
As we know, some designs are copied many years down the line - using either original moulds or not as the case may be. The attached is an example of a Stuart design for a handled claret jug which I found in recent weeks, locally. It's marked with Reg. No. 681269 - one of three Nos. allocated to Stuart on 21st February 1921 - a period when they were very active with the Board of Trade. It carries a matching No. 8, which for the body is in fact near the top of the handle.
But there's no way this piece was made in 1921 - far too unmarked, too clear and clean by far - it has just the word Stuart on the base (though I suppose it might have been in Granny's cabinet for one hundred years) ;) Some Stuart Reg. Designs are known to have been produced continually for 60 - 70 years - designs such as Woodchester and Strafford Rings.
Let's hope that given time we can nail the details for this Stuart leather bottle. Makes you wonder though, had W/Fs Registered this particular pattern if that might have prevented Stuart from using the same design.
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There are a few exceptions when it comes to Whitefriars marking stuff, the short lived Studio Range can be found engraved on the base (Whitefriars/pattern number/date) and I have a Whitefriars vase at present with an engraved RD number. It is the purple version of this vase on ebay:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/364137720292
John
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well, I'm blowed - shows I need to get out more often - thanks John. Looks to be pattern No. 916 and likely made between 1910 and 1930, though could be a year or two earlier. John, grateful if you will advise the Rd. No. - would be interesting to see the original factory drawing at Kew. Jackson says .... ".... probably designed between 1903 and 1910 ......... produced until early 1930s .........".
I've looked in both the Blue Book and Thompson from c. 1900 and 1910, but not aware of seeing the name Whitefriars. Could be for several reasons, the most likely being that it's hiding under CLASS IV rather than CLASS III which is the usual place for glass - CLASS IV is usually avoided by researchers as it's wood (I forget), but whatever, it's something other than glass.
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Hi John
Is the vase just engraved with the Rd. No and nothing else, no name or anything? I would not have recognized that as a Whitefriars piece if I came across it out and about. Shows how easily we can overlook something good!
I know W F used stickers but I'm not sure when that practice began.
Thanks for the info
Cheers
Keith
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Keith - appears to be the piece on page 126 top right, in Jackson.
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Hi Paul
Will take a look, it doesn't seem familiar to me but I suppose we can't remember them all. You mentioned Woodchester Pattern, I used to have some nice glasses probably for whiskey. I've also got some Stratford ring glasses somewhere around here with a Stratford jug which has a cut pattern from the 1927 Stuart catalogue. I do think Stuart are a bit underrated, they made some really nice glass.
Keith
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From memory the purple vase is engraved "Rd 543290" but I will check tomorrow and get some photos of it. It just goes to show Paul that every 'rule' has an exception somewhere down the line...
A couple of images of the Peter Wheeler designed vase for reference below. I have had a few items from the later New Studio Range over the years and they were unsigned.
Examples of both here:
https://whitefriars-glass.com/studio-range.php
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too true John - sincere thanks for posting the Reg. No. It should occur in June 1909, but as I suggested yesterday it's missing from the Blue Book and though I can't be certain, the reason is likely to be that it's in CLASS IV - it seems that registrants would sometimes do this deliberately to hide a design. I will need to visit Kew to confirm my CLASS IV assumption and take a snap of the factory drawing. thanks again.
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Started a new topic for the vase with Rd number, sorry, have been clogging this one up a bit:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,73541.0.html
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Quite by chance I came across a snippet of info related to this thread. Reading through the Roger Dodsworth edited "British Glass between the wars" on page 30 there's a paragraph about some of the 19th Century Stuart designs that were still being produced in the 1920s and 30s. This piece written by Christine Colledge state's " 'Leather' bottles identical to those made in 1881 were entered into the pattern book in 1929".
So if I'm reading this right Stuart who took over the Redhouse site in 1881 from Phillip Pargeter either continued Pargeter's production of these 'Leather' bottles or started their own production that year and then restarted production of them some time in the late 1920s. I suspect that at least some of the Whitefriars examples out there may be miss attributed.
It seems the Stuart version was around longer than I believed.
Cheers
Keith
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Further update.
Spotted this in an old Army and Navy catalogue from 1907.
I believe the one on the left to be a W/F version, don't know who made the Leather bottle to the right.
Cheers
Keith
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Discovered what appears to be a "leather bottle" type design in the W/F 1860 catalogue. Slightly different conical shape, but it seems to have the neck rigary and crimped side strap. Thought it may be of interest for this thread. Seems to push the date back a bit for this type of design.
Cheers
Keith