Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: glassobsessed on August 20, 2024, 12:23:46 PM
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For some reason this vase looks less substantial when photographed than it does in the flesh, engraved on the base Rd N 543290. An elegant vase, when I bought it the colour had me thinking Richardson, given the engraved mark Whitefriars was a surprise.
John
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can understand the reasoning - I have a Richardson vase in this colour ................ but even more surprising is the fact this has a Reg. No. - after all the years when they didn't go in for Registering their designs with the BoT, suddenly they seem to have changed the habit of a lifetime. But you say John that the base also carries an engraved 'Whitefriars' name? Sorry, brain not really in gear - believe it has the Reg. No. only, and assume you knew it was W/Fs simply from the shape?
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Lovely vase John. Have you got a height for it ?.
These are pictures of my vase which is 9.5 inches high.
This information comes from Scottish antiques Tunbridge Wells. https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/1kAAAOSwgSZj4fdz/s-l1600.webp
That design registration is by Thomas Carney West and was used by some manufacturers including Whitefriars.
It says that Whitefriars only produced that design in 5 inch high version and 6.75 inch version.
I had heard in the past that Richardson's also made this design.
Tim
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thanks Tim - that helps to explain the situation better. So the design Reg. is in the name of Thomas Carney West, and wasn't specifically Registered by W/Fs., but from what you're saying it appears they had permission to use it, and IIRC you're saying that this information comes from Scottish Antiques. I have it in mind to visit Kew later this week/early next week - will check details for confirmation. thanks again.
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Sorry Paul I was not all that clear in what I said, there were two Whitefriars vases with marks of one form or another, this one with the rd number and a signed Studio Range vase which is now in that other thread:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,73536.msg408453.html#msg408453
I also forgot to measure this one yesterday but pretty sure it is not 9 inches tall, maybe more like 6, dimensions to follow...
Somewhat of an intriguing vase then, it appears in the Whitefriars catalogue as pattern number 916. Previous discussion here with more examples:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,16536.0.html
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Also made by Stevens and Williams in uranium jade in an unribbed 7-in version http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=1726.
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Mine also 7 inches tall, a tad less in diameter.
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thanks John - hope to be at Kew next week, so will have a look at details for 543290 - though always possible we may not get quite to the bottom of what appears to be a 'sharing' of this design Registration.
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Some information on this thread here:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,36340.msg197641.html#msg197641
Also see Gulliver - Victorian Decorative Glass page 86. Gulliver has the name as Thomas West Carnie . Gulliver has it as 'Manufacturer: Unknown'.
Source: Mervyn Gulliver, Victorian Decorative Glass - British Designs1850-1914 page 86.
There is various discussion on who Thomas West Carnie was on the other thread.
In the Illustrated Official Journal (Patents) 14 May 1890 (page 354 entry number 6927), Thomas West Carnie of 19 Laurence Pountney Lane London, registered a patent for improvements in finger bowls:
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_illustrated_official_journal_patents/74hzyF1A-s4C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=thomas+west+carnie&pg=PA354&printsec=frontcover
(Gulliver has a different address for Thomas West Carnie)
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following on from my post above re the correction of the name to that in Gulliver of Thomas West Carnie - I've found something else here:
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Chemist_and_Druggist/WTXOAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=19+laurence+pountney+lane+london&pg=PA845&printsec=frontcover
In the 'Chemist and Druggist December 20th 1890' it lists on page 845 under the para heading:
"From the Trade Marks Journal December 3 1890'"
a
'T. W. Cairnie trading as G. Vogt & Co, 19 Laurence Pountney Lane London - '"THE SCENT OF THE MOORLAND" and landscape picture: for a perfume"
So - could the name be a Thomas West Cairnie? and could he be an agent or register of designs perhaps? Or could this just be a misprint of Carnie maybe? The address matches that of the Carnie registering a finger bowl patent.
Hmm - finding something else on Google search it seems G. Vogt & Co was a perfumes distributor of some sort - maybe not soley perfumes but definitely perfumes as advertised 'Vogt's new perfumes' and this:
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Thoughts_of_a_Queen/fj2I46SjNckC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=vogt+%26+co+19+Laurence+Pountney+Lane&pg=PP8&printsec=frontcover
Also seem to have supplied scented medicinal type things.Not sure how that links to finger bowls or these vases but I wonder if they were perhaps not vases but to be used for something else medicinal type - if indeed this is the same Thomas West Carnie/Cairnie who worked for G. Vogt & co? Because this is c.1890 and that vase registered design is much later.
Also a T. West Carnie also wrote a book/travel booklet called 'In quaint East Anglia' c. October 1899.
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Wheel_of_Life/pdsEAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=T.+W.+Carnie&pg=RA1-PA23&printsec=frontcover
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Aha -
T. West Carnie
The Connoisseur (Volume 87 (? I think 1931?) - Issues 354-355) has this advertisement:
'come to T. West Carnie (member of the British Antique Dealers Association) 60 Bryanston St, London W1' and also gives another address in Seymour Street.
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Connoisseur/t_jQ-trOzxkC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=60+Bryanston+St+London&dq=60+Bryanston+St+London&printsec=frontcover
and!
The Royal Horticultural Society issued a Silver Banksian medal to a
'T. West Carnie 59 Seymour Street, W., for flower glasses and ornaments;
Volume 42 - 1917
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Journal_of_the_Royal_Horticultural_Socie/hF5JAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=T.+West+Carnie+Seymour+Street&dq=T.+West+Carnie+Seymour+Street&printsec=frontcover
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m - your sleuthing is amazing to say the least ............. what is astounding, for me, is to read Bernard Cavelot's comments about W/Fs Registrations ........... "So far I've found eight Whitefriars design registrations in the period 1890 to 1945, none of which I've ever seen marked on their glass." A great shame Bernard didn't list the Reg. Nos. - where he found them I've no idea - did he research at Kew or elsewhere?
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m - your sleuthing is amazing to say the least ............. what is astounding, for me, is to read Bernard Cavelot's comments about W/Fs Registrations ........... "So far I've found eight Whitefriars design registrations in the period 1890 to 1945, none of which I've ever seen marked on their glass." A great shame Bernard didn't list the Reg. Nos. - where he found them I've no idea - did he research at Kew or elsewhere?
The finger bowl improvement patent registered by T. W. Carnie was done in 1890. I wonder if one of the WF designs registrations might have been for a finger bowl (new improved Carnie design??)
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how do you improve a finger bowl ? ...................... surely, a finger bowl is a finger bowl is a finger bowl .... how do you improve the most basic of shapes I wonder ? ;D I had dozens of finger bowls once - all now gone ........ all were simply the typical shape.
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Lovely piece of glass i love amethyst glass .