Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Laird on September 16, 2024, 10:34:12 AM
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A folded foot 'sherry' glass, with a broken pontil.
Is it Victorian? Georgian? A reproduction?
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Hi - the engraving looks very crude - not the sort of quality that might be expected on a period piece - of course, engraving on a glass might be added at any time after the piece was made.
Do copyists bother to copy a folded foot ? - really no idea, which presumably requires some skill to create. I'd have thought that tooling marks should be apparent, plus of course wear - here there is an everted rim on a bucket bowl - perhaps the wonkiness is deliberate. Really don't know what to think - what was the source of this glass - assuming you don't mind saying - is this lead glass? Sorry none of this is really helpful as to accurate dating.
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It's difficult to date without seeing it in the flesh but it looks 18thC., although I'm no expert. This site might help:
https://www.antique-marks.com/support-files/antique-marks-georgian-glass-2.pdf
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Thank you for the reference link.
Checking my glass against the described criteria, it seems to tick all the boxes, making me fairly confident that it is Georgian.
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I hate to be a gainsayer, but ............... the linked article draws attention to grape and vine engraving, imperfections in the glass, and the evidence of a snapped pontil - all of which can be found on glass throughout the C19 and to some extent into the C20 - so such features are far from conclusive for dating. In the 1920 - 30 period, there was a passion for replicating Georgian styles - all of the big glass makers indulged and they made some nice pieces, that are now the best part of a century old and with use will now show all the signs of antiquity, and be difficult to separate from genuine C18 pieces. Probably fair to say that it takes time to learn how to assess old glass - features such as shape and colour can help, but as NevB says handling something in the flesh really is the only way to feel as sure as we can be, and spending much time at fairs handling old pieces is essential.
I'll just repeat my comment about the engraving - it looks very crude compared to period work, and looks very white - not what we'd expect to see on an old glass. The Georgians were long lived - 1714 to1830 - so perhaps we should try to be a tad more specific. ;D
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I think I have a couple like this (packed away). If I remember, they didn’t ping when flicked and I thought they were 18c but continental. Can’t remember how I came to that conclusion though!
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the problem with glass (maybe glass in particular), is that we all want ours to be old - as in really old, and the magic word that collectors love is 'Georgian' - Continental pieces often don't ping.
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Hi, we believe that the glass dates from the beginning of the 19th century - c1820 - so is late Georgian, and the engraving is typical of the period for tavern glasses; done quickly and without much care and attention. We've had quite a few pass through our hands and I attach images of the last one we had. They are (or at least the ones that we have had) lead glass but don't tend to ring when flicked with a nail due to the thickness, shape and size of the bowl. Hope this helps. Kind regards, Neil
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Unfortunately, Neil, this doesn't get round the issue that those criteria mention in the linked article from NevB - "grape and vine engraving, imperfections in the glass, and the evidence of a snapped pontil" - don't on their own confirm that such pieces are c. 1820. So, what you're saying is that with pieces like this it's the shape, the folded foot and the knops that are the deciding factors.
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Hello Paul, yes, as I believe Peter (oldglassman on this site) used to say - "if everything is right about a glass then it must be right". Peter, of course, is one of the most knowledgeable experts on Georgian glass alive today, and helped mentor me in my early days of trading in Georgian glass. The glass in question meets all the criteria of a Georgian glass including rough pontil mark (although many were polished off by the date of this glass), grey metal, striations and other toolmarks from the use of pucellas, naive English wheel-engraving, imperfections in the metal, style (including bowl shape, stem formation and folded foot) and wear. This style is also not uncommon as far as Georgian glasses are concerned e.g. this one on the Scottish Antiques site - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/365054696383?_skw=georgian+dram+glass&itmmeta=01J85HFN95V272SYA72VCMVR0Z&hash=item54fef49bbf:g:n8AAAOSwZilmtHWo&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKk7WlbYR1GSsPWl3%2FkLWAI2IGg5LYO%2BSAcBOqj01vTaKtA1ClRlJ2TJDa1b%2BYvnnFTALdBTXq8v5PDgQGZqx7y9lsmKLfU8s03F7kDFbDDv1FcnUXupbEEWfQTCuNoJMnuxxVapiXbk%2FeMxxba%2FYUYJMcbeU%2Bz01ECNNDb%2FfbTcjfpm%2FWIpXiv4Hf8D63KiqORFQeyIMglvDLl7LC7P46Ps2NzibqrPecg7YejBwC7q3ZS9oTpwgJNiWYdodO5ZgQmynWpDyZR2gmShgJeeCnzBfxBgQxVasuFMfsLo4iD93Q%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR-LUvrHBZA - and is recognised as such. Hopefully I've answered your question but please let me know if I have misunderstood what you were asking for. I'm always happy to help identify glass of this period in Peter's absence (hopefully temporarily) from the site. The least I can do for all those who help me identify more modern glass.
One last point, folded feet were popular in the early to mid 18th century and then saw a resurgence in the early 19th from when this glass dates
Kind regards
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many thanks Neil for your reply - I think I was born a sceptic. ;) Handling and experience do count for a lot in this game of ours, and there is no substitute for having something in the hand to get that sense of 'rightness' that pix on the screen are unable to provide. thanks again.
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Regarding the engraving, Bickerton plate 230 shows a conical bowl, plain straight stem gin glass c.1740 with pretty much identical engraving to that on Laird’s. The quality of engraving also looks about the same from what I can see. Similar glass shown on Scottish antiques here: https://scottishantiques.com/Georgian-drinking-glasses/antique-gin-glass/?product_id=43464
Scottish antiques also have similar shapes to Laird’s dated mid 18th century for example: https://scottishantiques.com/Georgian-drinking-glasses/firing-dram-glass/port-glass-folded-foot/ and https://scottishantiques.com/Georgian-drinking-glasses/firing-dram-glass/?product_id=1011
Still not sure what makes one c.1810 and another c.1750. Laird, is the diameter of the foot larger than that of the rim?
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Thank you Gents for sharing your knowledge. I believe you have correctly placed it in the 19th century. I have checked, and indeed this glass does not 'ping'. The foot is 5.4 cm diameter while the flared rim is 5.6 cm. Further, the glass has striations, with at least one imperfection/bubble in the bowl, and when viewed under a magnifying glass, the engraving does indeed look carelessly done.
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I believe the foot being smaller diameter than the rim supports the later date.
Back to the engraving, Phelps Warren Irish Glass calls the engraving ‘bowknot and leaf-frond’ and shows it on drinking glasses and decanters that are dated c1815 or 1820. He seems to more specifically say that the motif is associated with Waterloo Co. Cork, established 1815. So Irish rather than English?
Perhaps Bickerton is incorrect in his 1740 dating of the glass shown in plate 230, he would be quite far off? Are there any references for the shape of Laird’s glass being from c1810 or later and not earlier into the 18th century?
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I have difficulty believing that LM Bickerton would have dated the glass as 18th century. I checked my copy of his 18th Century Drinking Glasses (Antiques Collectors Guide - 1986 second edition) and plate 230 is a long stem pan-top balustroid wine glass. Do you have a different version of the book? I know it was published in shorter form. I checked through my copy (all 1200 plates) and there is no such glass in there. Nor is there in Ward-Lloyd or Hartshorne. Would be good to have a reference to the glass if it is in one version of Bickerton's book. Kind regards
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My book is An Illustrated Guide to Eighteenth-Century English Drinking Glasses by L M Bickerton. It doesn’t say which edition but says first published 1971 so assume a first edition? Published by Barrie & Jenkins, 854 plates.
The glass on plate 230 looks to have the same engraving as Laird’s, but different shape (drawn trumpet). It’s in the Plain Straight Stems section. Maybe it was removed from later editions and he got it wrong. That would be disappointing.
Just to add, the description of that glass says at the bottom ‘Hartshorne Collection (fig.20a)’.
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These close ups of the engraving might be useful to the discussion - the type of tools/wheel used perhaps?
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looking at the close up of the 'engraving', the appearance is similar to sand blasting - the way that the edges of the decoration leak slightly onto the surrounding clear glass isn't the sort of effect that the wheel would leave. Also I don't see any striations within the 'engraving' that a wheel would create.
However, there wasn't any sand blasting being used at the date this glass was made, so wheel engraving it has to be. ;)
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The engraving looks ok to me, in the photo of the bow, there look to be striations from the tool within the engraving going almost horizontally. The engraving is fairly coarse and shallow so hasn’t got a particularly defined edge.
Phelps Warren comments on some of the engraving of the fronds of this type “…more often lightly implied than honestly stated”. Assume that’s a polite way of saying the engraving isn’t too fancy :)
The photos in the book aren’t good enough to see the close detail. You could find examples online if you look up Waterloo Co. Cork glass, especially dip moulded decanters as they can have the makers name moulded into the bottom.