Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: pjm699 on January 16, 2025, 02:34:44 PM
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I am looking for information about the Crystal & Oil Illuminations that the company I work for (Pains) used to do with J Defries &Co, sadly this is not something we have offered for a very long time now!
We are looking to conserve an advertisement that we have (we believe from the Great Exhibition) and wondered if there are more examples out there.
We have 2 documents showing the "Crystal Illuminations" that we used to offer and when I searched for this term, I found a link to the national archive in New Zealand where the Defries name came into things as part of the pitch we made to the New Zealand Government - this time with Defries' name on it rather than ours but as part of our pitch (as far as I can discern).
Link to NZ archive
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE14566690
On the left of the New Zealand document are the "Oil Illuminations" which I believe (but have no specific proof) are the little coloured jars shown below, of which I have ca500 cluttering up my warehouse. They are 95mm tall and 60mm across the mouth. Company archive suggests that these were used at the wedding of Edward VII and also that of Queen Victoria (although I can find no actual proof of the latter). I think this might be a request to the royal archives at some point soon.
The attached images also (I believe) link to a post on this message board in 2013 which was a poster for Defries & Co. The similarities in the "God Save the Queen" banner make me think that what is shown in the poster in the previous posting are the "Crystal Illuminations" that are shown on our documents.
Link to the previous post on this forum:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,55055.msg311992.html#msg311992
I am basically interested in any other images anyone has of either Crystal or Oil Illuminations.
Our artifact;
Our advertising oval/shield/badge is ca 900*750mm and has sadly suffered some damage in storage (which I am looking to repair) and it is made from 22mm (7/8") elongated octagonal crystals. We have given the front a gentle clean and when we slid LED light strip behind it, it looked fantastic. Next step is to detach the piece from the backing board so we can clean the backs and then I have to make some decisions on how we go about the next stages.
The wire holding all the crystals on is galvanised steel but very thin and the galvanising has worn away and some of the wire is disintegrating (due to damp) so some of the fixing wire is going to need replacing. Everything is mounted on a thick steel wire galvanised frame which is also rusting in places so we are going to have to take off crystals to treat the rust, push out some dents to the wire frame and replace the crystals (probably with brass wire this time).
Just a note, the 'badge' is a 2 person lift (although I do not know a specific mass) so the 16' wide swags such as the two on the flier must have been horrendously heavy!
I hope the above is interesting and I would be most interested to see what else is out there to show what was on the market at the time, also if anyone has things that a newbie will likely make a mess of in the restoration, then a warning would be much appreciated on that front as well.
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And the File I failed to attach......
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Hi, and welcome to the board. Apologies for the delay in replying.
This is absolutely amazing and fascinating information! Thank you so much for sharing the info and the gorgeous pictures. Amazing stuff. I would never have envisioned what the 'crystal illuminations' looked like from just the old pictures.
I will have a search around to see if there is any more information out there but you could also try contacting Charles Hajdamach, who might have some information on J Defries & co.
His contact information I think is here:
https://hajdamach.com/pages/contact.html
There is much more information on this thread here by the way (a different thread to the one you linked to)- some of it may be interesting/helpful. There are photographs from Kew very kindly supplied by Paul who visited Kew to check through the designs and photograph them and Agincourt17 has supplied a huge amount of detail as well. There are also many pics of J. Defries glass:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,51380.msg363131.html#msg363131
The national archives have a registered design from 1852 here:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/record?catid=-7610757&catln=7
This amazing picture appears to be a J. Defries chandelier from 1862:
https://www.album-online.com/en/search?iSF=3&sT=JONAS+DEFRIES+%26+SONS&iPP=2
The V&A have a copy of the theatre opening with an amazing chandelier by J. Defries here (scroll down on the link for the detailed information):
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1604226/poster-advertising-the-new-standard-poster-mccabe--company/
It is just wonderful to see your photograph of the crystal plaque. Incredible.
Oh and by the way, it could be possible that the little jars are actually the 'Coloured hand lights for illumination of grounds and processions' that came in three colours and are mentioned on 'image 8' of your link here:
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE14566690
Oh further thought - you could try contacting the V&A because in the link you gave the information appears to talk about 'South Kensington' and I think that means the V&A?
m
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And a stunning ewer with applied cabochons, 1860s sold through Bonhams with further information here:
https://www.bonhams.com/auction/27666/lot/152/a-rare-j-defries-and-sons-jewelled-and-engraved-ewer-circa-1865-70/
There are many items of china coming up stamped J. Defries so I wonder if they were merchandising for other makers in the 1860s or so?
and you possibly have this book from J. Defries designs 1869 and 1870:
https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/New_Designs_for_Glass_Chandeliers_Candel.html?id=ZVgGzwEACAAJ&redir_esc=y
There is also a report online that Defries were entrusted with the entire decorations for the University Ball at the Oxford Commemoration in 1875. It could be worth contacting Oxford to see if they have any information on what those decorations were?
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Wow, that is a lot to follow-up on, thank you very much.
We were definitely using the little jars to make images as shown in the brochure (cover and internal page) images below, but that obviously does not preclude the use of them for hand or ground illumination. We did actually lend them out for a local council children's lit procession a few years back but the attrition rate was rather high. It was lovely to see them being used but we felt that we could not allow the level of losses to continue - so now they are once more somewhat unloved.
From the other items around the 'Prismatic Lights' in the NZ archive I would expect these to be pyrotechnic items (we only have one size of glass jar and more than 4 colours) especially with the colour change listed. If it were a torch / hand illumination thingy - I would expect that to appear lower down with the 'Tar torches' and their friends. I will check this however as they may be mixed-in with the pyro).
I think we will have a gentle clean of the back of the whatever it is that we have and then I will try to get a back-lit image.
The it will be on to finding someone who can make replacement buttons, especially for the blue and red sections.
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I wonder if the buttons came from Bohemia.
If so you could try contacting one of the factories there. I'll have a think about who is still making these.
I have two chandeliers also made with strung crystal buttons which I think are French 'manufactured' i.e. put together with the metal parts, but in my opinion it's possible the 'buttons' were made in Bohemia. Oh and they are small but extremely heavy as well. The crystal buttons weigh a ton when used together.
Preciosa does pressed parts it seems and so I don't know if they would be able to supply, but they may be worth contacting to see if they can recommend another maker in Czech Republic who could make and supply the coloured buttons:
https://www.preciosa-ornela.com/chandelier-parts
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In addition to my reply above :)
I'm curious to know, are the buttons 'hooked' together in string with a hole at each side as my chandelier is?
Or are they hollow threaded like a necklace bead would be and threaded onto the wires that way?
Or ... are they inserted into a wire mesh backing?
It's hard to tell from your photograph and I'm just curious really - not very helpful to your cause :)
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Thankyou for the Preciosa link, I will get on to them a bit later I think.
Our buttons are all two hole and are put onto a framework and then wired-on over the framework at the meeting point.
You can see the sad state of the attatchment wire in the image, and the framework wire as well.
The letters were made separately and then clipped on to the main framework as you can see in the corner of the image.
They have then been filled around with the clear buttons (which I guess makes sense from a manufacturing point of view - especially if they are for a single event and then back into the stores).
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The wire holding all the crystals on is galvanised steel but very thin and the galvanising has worn away and some of the wire is disintegrating (due to damp) so some of the fixing wire is going to need replacing. Everything is mounted on a thick steel wire galvanised frame which is also rusting in places so we are going to have to take off crystals to treat the rust, push out some dents to the wire frame and replace the crystals (probably with brass wire this time).
Hi, that’s quite a project. The way the beads are attached with twisted wire looks quite neat. If you are not aware, you can get special pliers to twist the wires together like that. If you search for “wire locking pliers” you will find examples. Used in the aircraft industry, the pliers grip the wires, then you pull a knob which rotate the pliers, twisting the wires neatly together. The pliers might be useful if you are having to reattach the beads, also possibly the stainless steel wire.
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They are the same as my chandelier buttons and attach in exactly the same way holes either side. My chandelier buttons have a little metal hooked and tip wire, a bit fiddly to attach the little metal hooks but not that difficult. I'm assuming they aren't huge as each button of mine are about 2cm diameter I think (from memory, haven't stood on a chair to measure them). They are attached together in long rows dropping down from a circlet which are all then draped onto a bottom central circle plate with holes in to attach the little metal hook.
Also old, I think dating to mid (maybe?) to late 1800s. Maybe even into early 1900s
So I do believe yours are from a chandelier button/droplet maker.
Preciosa may be able to put you onto a crystal maker who might have been in operation during the 1800s maybe.
I used old original buttons on sale on ebay for my tiny replacements. Chandelier drops are often on sale in big quantities on ebay. Obviously I'm assuming your buttons are chandelier sized rather than gigantic :)
Oh and I clean mine with a microfibre cloth with a teeny bit of fairy liquid on it wiped over whilst supporting them with my hand. Then rinse them with clean microfibre cloth just wrung out in warm water. Not sure this is the conservation method of the National Trust ;D but it works for me.
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Information here about Weston's Music Hall opened in 1857. There is a long description of it here along with mention of the Chandeliers supplied by Defries:
Part quote
http://www.arthurlloyd.co.uk/westons.htm
'...The hall is lighted with five magnificent glass chandeliers, furnished by Messrs. Defries, the well known firm of Houndsditch. The central one weighs nearly one ton, and is eleven feet in diameter. Messrs. Patrick and Sons, of Westminster Road, were the general contractors for the work, which, we are bound to say, has been brought to so successful a termination.'
If Defries weren't using chandelier parts made by their own company, it might also be possible they perhaps used parts from Pellatt's? Another line of investigation perhaps? Pellatt's Falcon Glassworks were based in a similar area south of the now Tate I think or around that area.
I'm interested because it's fascinating glass of course, but also because I recently discovered my great grandfather and grandfather were Deptford born. Great Great Grandfather worked in Southwark and my great grandfather would have been around there as a kid when these light displays were being used :)
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1)
Letter in Sydney archives dated 10th May 1893 from J. Defries & Sons requesting offering their services for decorations for the approaching marriage of H.R.H The Duke of York, heir presumptive.
Letter states that they had been honoured 'with the chief contracts in England and the Colonies on occasion of this kind from the coronation of Her Majesty, the Empress Queen, up to the Jubilee of 1887 and the present time'.
https://archives.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/nodes/view/1562253
Author refers to their 'system of Cut Crystal Illumination and general Decorative work'
It also says ' we have been for many years sole contractors to the British Government for all this class of work'.
2) In addition:
An advertisement from 1874 stating they supply ' crystal illuminations to any device, sign or drawing'
https://books.google.co.uk/books/content?id=ToEGR1KxbssC&pg=PP6&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&bul=1&sig=ACfU3U1UQUzRhewr3WNvVfZLwg1uyA-T7g&w=1025
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_London_and_Suburban_Licensed_Victual/ToEGR1KxbssC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=J+Defries+%26+sons+cut+crystal+illuminations&pg=PP6&printsec=frontcover
3) Another advertisement from 1876 stating that they'd made displays in India, Sri Lanka, Gibraltar etc and that they were enlarging the display department:
https://books.google.co.uk/books/content?id=_ahHAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA8&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&bul=1&sig=ACfU3U2yJgUFZacwGLJOjce-I5xhjXXp3w&w=1025
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Belgravia/_ahHAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=J+Defries+%26+sons+cut+crystal+illuminations&pg=PA8&printsec=frontcover
4) Mention here from 1867 of a 'patent lamp for mineral oil'
https://books.google.co.uk/books/content?id=n0lYAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA114&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&bul=1&sig=ACfU3U1CzBO3P5Q0HCJh4dVTeUKxLIc1eg&w=1025
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Bradshaw_s_Hand_Book_to_the_Paris_Intern/n0lYAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=J+Defries+%26+sons+cut+crystal+illuminations&pg=PA114&printsec=frontcover
5) Page 43 here from 1878 Kelly's handbook
- crystal illuminations for 'mansions, castles, buildings of every description ...' and stating ' By Appointment to HM The Queen'
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Kelly_s_Handbook_to_the_Upper_Ten_Thousa/dtuKniCyBuAC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=J+Defries+%26+sons+cut+crystal+illuminations&pg=RA1-PA43&printsec=frontcover
https://books.google.co.uk/books/content?id=dtuKniCyBuAC&pg=RA1-PA43&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&bul=1&sig=ACfU3U2N0Cu7dry2-uZM8b1z4hVrkiCVYg&w=1025
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Finally ...
Here on page 54 of The Architect 1874 a full description of what J. Defries supplied for St Petersburg - which appears to be the decoration of crystal illuminations of many buildings!!
(see bottom of left hand column titles Illuminations St Petersburg)
https://books.google.co.uk/books/content?id=QKAaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA54&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&bul=1&sig=ACfU3U01aI7XAj7PepCrxn1JHS0m-i2oLg&w=1025
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Architect/QKAaAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=j.+Defries+%26+sons+crystal+illuminations&pg=PA54&printsec=frontcover
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Is this information about Wells Fireworks, the same company as per the 'buttoned' badge you showed?
https://www.wellsfireworks.co.uk/history
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According to this contemporary report, the fireworks were by D'Ernst (the ones in Green Park seen from Buck House) and Southby (in Hyde Park) for the Queen Victoria coronation:
Source: A Diary of Royal Movements
See page 104 (as typed on the left of the page in this link)
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/A_diary_of_royal_movements_and_of_person/-oUBAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=queen+victoria+coronation+fireworks+green+park&pg=PA104&printsec=frontcover
They cost £1,492. 8. 3
D'Ernst was maker to the King - see advertisement here from 1827
https://boroughphotos.org/lambeth/dernst-fireworks-advertisement-vauxhall-gardens/
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Page 77 here describes the ladies working at Defries and Sons pinning the chandelier parts together.
It also describes male workers cutting and finishing the droplets, so it seems chandelier droplets were at least cut to shape and polished at Defries & Sons:
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Family_friend_ed_by_R_K_Philp/zNsEAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=defries+%26+sons+glass&pg=RA1-PA77&printsec=frontcover
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Page 77 here describes the ladies working at Defries and Sons pinning the chandelier parts together.
It also describes male workers cutting and finishing the droplets, so it seems chandelier droplets were at least cut to shape and polished at Defries & Sons:
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Family_friend_ed_by_R_K_Philp/zNsEAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=defries+%26+sons+glass&pg=RA1-PA77&printsec=frontcover
Just to clarify this comment, the reason I wrote that is because on page 66 into 67 of From Neuwelt to the Whole World, a book on Harrach glass production, it mentions the chandelier hangings which the glassworks began manufacturing in 1826. It say their basic form was created using pressing pliers, and they were then refined by cutting (the source quoted for this in the book is "Weiss 1986, p. 28; Pazaurek 1923, p. 253".)
My point is that these could have been shipped wholesale from Harrach in Bohemia in the form made with pressing pliers ... and then cut at the receivers end.
See also page 87 third to last paragraph
'Neuwelt also produced chandelier hangings and other parts, but it was not factory policy to make finished chandeliers.'