Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Bohemia, Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic, Austria => Topic started by: Andy on October 29, 2006, 05:24:53 PM
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Hi, got this enormous 17" fantastic cocktail shaker and 4 matching glasses at an auction, after a clean, it looks amazing. Im pretty sure its loetz, and ther is a very very faint signature, which i thought was a scratch, after blowing it up and increasing light, i managed to get a photo of it! The glasses have made in Czechoslovakia on the base, and all have a Rockwell silver stamp on the base. I wonder if the glasses are Michael Powolny? Research has found that Rockwell Silver is in the USA around 1907-20, so i presume they imported the glass and then did silvering. I cannot find anything similar by Loetz, any ideas anyone?? Andy.
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3922
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3918
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3919
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3921
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3920
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I thought id bump this one of mine up again, as maybe any new members may have
an opinion!
Im pretty sure the glasses are Michael Powolny, possibly Tango?
No replies last time, any ideas of signature??, I think it says Loetz!
seasons greetings,
Andy
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Hi Andy,
There are two conflicting aspects of this enquiry. Rockwell existed 1907-20 (and possibly later). The 1st Czechoslovakian Republic did not come into existence, at least on paper, until October 1918, hostilities ending on 11th of November, and the official state and constitution in 1920. The "Made in Czechoslovakia" mark would have been possible from 1919, but I have no date for its first use. Is it etched?
The signature is very faint, and I wonder if you can manage a picture from a slightly different angle? Difficult to say loetz...
It is clear however that "Tango" is a fairly generic description of this glass, and not all "Tango" was designed by Powolny, or indeed, made by Loetz, and other prestigious makers such as Harrach (Harrachov) are certainly known to have had a "Tango" range, and to have had craftsmen and women, who could have carried out the silver decoration to the pieces that you have.
I take it that the silver fittings are all marked Rockwell?
Regards,
Marcus
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Thanks Marcus,
All the silver work on the Shaker and glasses is marked Rockwell,
On the base of the glasses is the Rockwell shield and made in Czechoslovakia,
ive just added thefollowing photo of the clearest marks,
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-4381
The marks appear to be a stamp in silver, not etching.
On the shaker, the Rockwell shield is very faint, right in the centre of base, the mark
which i believe reads Loetz is very faint, and the photo is the best i could get even fiddling
with my software, and increasing the light, maybe an expert could fiddle with contrast or
negative or colour to improve?
A couple more photos...
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-4383
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-4382
and the signature again,
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-3918
I should say the signature looks very similar to those shown on Loetz.com identifying page.
Regards and thanks
Andy
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Hi Andy,
Have you shown these images to Eddy Scheepers?
Eddy is far more capable of advancing this, than I am, "Tango" and Loetz really being out-side my area of research, and knowledge.
Regards,
Marcus
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Hi Andy, it seems that Rockwell did overlaying for a number of companys from Viking to Lenox china in the USA. so maybe one of our American freinds can help?.
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Hi Marcus,
funny you should say that, i did send some photos to Eddy at Loetz.com about 6
months ago, i had trouble with reducing my photos, and i think i kept blocking his email
in box, and i never managed to get a photo of the signature to him!
His opinion was it was Probably Bohemian but not Loetz, but im convinced the faint
signature is genuine! I have just emailed him again with this link and a photo of the signature,
and asked him if he wouldnt mind having another look!!
Hopefully i havent blocked his email this time!
Regards Andy
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no idea on the glass, but I could read
O & S Y
hope this helps - Ivo?
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Looks very different with a cleanup and the other way up.
http://www.dropshots.com/photos/138984/20041113/b_143055.jpg (http://www.dropshots.com/photos/138984/20041113/b_143055.jpg)
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Hi ,
Thanks all, im still convinced its an o e -z and i think an l at the front,heres the link to Loetz.com
with similar and fake ones!
http://www.loetz.com/
and then click on identifying ( all pages have the same url?)
I tried to get more photos last night, but couldnt, fact is its so faint i didnt see it
myself until i examined very closely in sunlight!
Cheers Andy
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Hi Andy,
Can you clarify?
Do your pieces have the words "Made in Czechoslovakia" on them, rather than just "Czecho Slovakia" or "Czechoslovakia"?
Eddy's site makes it quite clear that "Czecho Slovakia" in either an oval or square border are the appropriate Loetz marks, and the single word Czechoslovakia, without a box or oval border indicates Kralik, or other Czechoslovakian companies as users of that mark, including Gebruder Podbira.
Regards,
Marcus
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Hi Marcus,
this is the base of the drinking glasses,
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-4381
They have 'made in' and then 'czechoslovakia' in 2 little semi circle boxes,(top left)
The shaker just has the shield of meridian silver and then this very very very faint
mark, which i think just says Loetz! I just tried 40 more photos but cannot even get anything this time!
Cheers Andy
ps if it reads Loetz, then there appears to be an extra mark after the z, as seen in the
picture that Glassic kindly cleaned up, although i still think that is upside down, i may again be
imagining it, but maybe its an artists mark, as on Eddys page, maybe an M? as he has pictured?
I could probably convince myself of anything, if i try hard enough!!
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Time for a bump on this one with new bigger piccies, just managed to get a couple of mark
on base of shaker in the lovely February Sunshine.
I still think its Loetz :D
Cheers Andy
ps the link to Loetz.com
http://www.loetz.com/
i cant see the full url for the page on identifying signatures though :-\
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photo of base of glasses, and a couple more for luck.
8)
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This ones back again!
I had a desire to dismantle the top, looking for clues, i was very impressed by the manufacture
of all the metal parts. I found the red glass finial unscrews, very impressed that the screw
goes directly into the glass beautifully! The red finial reminds me of onyx type glass used by loetz,
im sure it IS glass.
I wonder if the metal work was done in Bohemia, or by the USA company that did the silvering?
There are Craftsmen involved in all aspects of this piece ;)
Any ideas anyone? There are no marks on the metal work, just the silver on the glass 'sterling'.
Ive looked at the blown up signature again on the shaker , now i know more Bohemian makers,
Kralik ? Harrach? I still think its my original thought!
Any more ideas for the tango glasses, could be different maker to shaker? Pic 3 of base again,
I think its likely the 'made in Czechoslovakia' was added the same time as the rockwell mark, so
that means it was put on in the USA :huh: (writing and silver looks the same!)
Sorry to keep returning to this one, but im not giving up 8)
Andy
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Wow, that is a beautiful set! And that's one heckuva big cocktail shaker.
According to http://www.loetz.com/ no Loetz is signed with the Loetz signature after 1903, and all Loetz sigs are engraved, so I suspect the written mark is either not Loetz or is fake.
Warren might be able to tell you more about the Made in Czechoslovakia mark.
Just for the heck of it, here's your stem with another Rockwell overlay pattern - unfortunately, this one is also unidentified:
http://www.glasshound.com/tango_cocktail_glass_rockwell_334.html
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Kristi,
youre right, Loetz.com says no loetz signature after 1903, how could i miss that :-[ :-[ :-[
Going back to Marcus' first suggestion, maybe signature reads Harrach??
Im thinking its ch at the end? It would explain the conflicts in date , signature etc.
Any Harrach collectors out there?
pics again of signature and base.
Andy
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Rockwell Metalwork & Silver Decorating was open from 1907 to 1978 although there are gaps so its thought they had a history of opening, closing & reopening, but they were not closed for any great length of time, maybe months then reopened & all the metalwork & overlay was done by them. Your set is found here in the US & is usually priced around $500-$600 with the glasses.
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Hi and thanks g-m-a,
Ive seen similar , do you mean exactly the same, and as big?
can you point me to a website?
Any ideas on which of the Bohemian manufacturers may have made the glass?
Regards
Andy :D
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Andy I've seen these in malls in the midwest...your decanter for instance is in Herat of Ohio Antique Mall...no glasses & priced at $250. I've seen them on eBay, Tias & Ruby Lane at times. This same Czech set is also found with the Rockwell Antelope, same Black Amethyst & Orange coloration & these (the Antelope) are very pricey...I see them at $750+. I'll check around to see if I can find the set on-line. Ken
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Well Andy here is the decanter, Cobalt, but same one, same decoration. Not yet IDed as to manufacturer.
Mod: Links to clicksnipwow removed as site is no longer connected to glass. Please visit http://chataboutdg.com/forums/ and use the search function instead
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Thanks very much Ken :hiclp: :hiclp: :hiclp:
Youve helped me get very close on this one, after 2 years!
Not much doubt that Rockwell did most and probably all of the Metalwork,
colours and Tango i reckon date it to circa 1920.
Glass , Bohemian, i presume the blanks imported to the USA, it would be nice to confirm
maker of glass, im leaning towards Harrachov, after having a bee in my bonnet for Loetz all this time,
sorry about that everyone whos helped me :-[ !
I think mines a lot more impressive than the Blue one in Kens link!
I will think what to do with it now, maybe look out for a good Art Deco auction in London some time,
It deserves to go to a keen Deco collector ;D
All views on the signature,welcome.
Thanks all,
Andy
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Deco collector here!! See my site;
http://decoqueen.fortunecity.com/index.html (http://decoqueen.fortunecity.com/index.html). Mod: Link not working
I drool over these sets every time I see one but they are always over my price range :cry:. The link for the cobalt one is the American site that some of us belong to so if anyone ever has time to roam around our unknowns and ID them just let me know!! ;)
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Just watching Dickinsons real deal,ITV UK TV (sad i know :P) another of these cocktail shakers just came up, the dealer
on the show, Michael Hogben, straight away took out the top bits, the pourer and bits, and says that doesnt go with
the vase !! Ha Ha! He liked it , offered £250 and didnt want the discarded top ! The seller refused, and went to auction,
he had a reserve of £500, got to £480, (with the complete shaker parts! ) lots of interest and Dickinson thought it was worth
£500.
The seller had raised his reserve from £400. His Father found it many many years ago, during the war when he worked in
London doing a bit of wheeling and dealing !
More silvering than mine, but apparently the red finial is bakerlite, not as nice as mine !
Just had a good idea ;D Great thing about Sky plus, heres some photos !!
Andy
( I cant possibly imagine theres any copyright problems ! )
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Rockwell would not have added any markings but theirs & your shaker is relatively well known to be Czech over here simply by the "made in" mark. Rockwell used Czech imports from time to time & was in business to at least 1950 as blanks have been found decorated by them that didn't exist until that time. Very high quality shaker set that commands good money over here. Bye the way the guy on your UK show must be dim witted although I will have to admit I've seen a few of the bottoms in malls where sellers were trying to move them as vases.