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Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: johnfandmaryp on February 09, 2007, 02:30:44 PM

Title: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
Post by: johnfandmaryp on February 09, 2007, 02:30:44 PM
I got this glass fish in a mixed lot at auction recently, and want to check whether it's Murano before listing it on eBay. It's about 32cm long.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/hog-man/Murano%20fish/IM000369.jpg)

close up of head is at http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/hog-man/Murano%20fish/IM000374.jpg

I'm also a bit unsure about the tail as there seems to be a rather rough 'join' along the top of it. Is this normal? There's a picture of this at http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/hog-man/Murano%20fish/IM000373.jpg

Many thanks in anticipation, John.
Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
Post by: Bernard C on February 10, 2007, 10:55:12 AM
John — All fish are Murano, aren't they?   At least a browse around eBay would lead you to that conclusion!

This beauty was made by Nazeing Glass Works of Broxbourne, Hertfordshire, and sold wholesale by George Davidson of Gateshead, appearing alongside fishing floats made by Nazeing in Davidson's 1961 trade catalogue.   I don't know why this arrangement was made between the two companies, but I suspect that Nazeing did not then have an effective wholesale distribution network for retail fancy goods, having ceased production of cloudy glass in the 1950s, so it made sense to add them to the Davidson product range.

Nazeing fish have two distinct characteristics distinguishing them from Murano fish.   The tail is a split continuation of the body, retaining the body colours, rather than an applied tail.   The other is the applied dorsal fin, drawn up into a series of points, usually numbering between about four and seven.

They're fairly consistent in shape, but vary considerably in size.   They come in every wonderful colour and colour combination you could envisage, plus some that you wouldn't have thought of.

Note that your fish is slightly unusual as it has a coloured eye — only the second time I have seen a coloured eye.  Coloured fins are also an unusual variant.

I just love them, and, if we had the space, they would be my first choice of any type of glass for a collection.

Just one mystery remains for me.   The name of the inspired master glassmaker who made them.

Bernard C.  8)

Sources:
  • Timberlake, Geoff, Nazeing Glass Works, 2003
  • Stewart, Chris & Val, Davidson Glass — a history, 2005
    • Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: Della on February 10, 2007, 01:19:25 PM

    Quote from: Bernard
    Nazeing fish have two distinct characteristics distinguishing them from Murano fish.   The tail is a split continuation of the body, retaining the body colours, rather than an applied tail.   The other is the applied dorsal fin, drawn up into a series of points, usually numbering between about four and seven.

    I have a fish with similar characteristics to those you mention, Bernard, except the fins on mine are not pointed, however, there are four, the tool marks are the same as those on Johns (I am aware that the use of tools is global, so that isn't a defining fact), as is the split in the tail.
    Is it possible that my fish is also Nazeing, or am I totally wrong?

    (http://s55.photobucket.com/albums/g150/Deltab/th_fish.jpg) (http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g150/Deltab/fish.jpg)(http://s55.photobucket.com/albums/g150/Deltab/th_fishtail.jpg) (http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g150/Deltab/fishtail.jpg)
    Click to enlarge.

    Many thanks in advance.
    Della  :D
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: johnfandmaryp on February 10, 2007, 02:56:47 PM
    Hi Bernard, and thank you so much for your very informative and interesting reply.

    It's certainly an attractive and very clourful piece! :)

    I've just had another good look at the fish and the applied eyes are actually clear ~ the colour which appears in them is actually on the body of the fish, red on one side and blue on the other!

    Having looked through all the 'Murano' fish on eBay, I wasn't convinced that it was exactly the same, mainly for the reasons which you have explained ~  I'm now very glad that I asked.

    Many thanks again for your help, which is very much appreciated.

    Regards, John.

    PS Would you mind if I used this information in my eBay listing (with due acknowledgement, of course)?
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: Bernard C on February 10, 2007, 03:57:52 PM
    Della — Your fish just doesn't shout "Nazeing" at me, in the way that John's does.   It could have been by a different glassworks in a similar style, or have been by a different glassmaker at Nazeing.   If you compared it with a dozen or more classic Nazeing fish, you could check the colours and tooling to see if it was the second possibility, but I don't know how you would get enough fish together to do that — I've only two in stock at the moment.

    I'm sorry that I can't be more help.

    Quote from: johnfandmaryp
    ... Would you mind if I used this information in my eBay listing (with due acknowledgement, of course)?
    John — I'm pleased that you asked.   Yes, as long as you take care to not change the sense of my words.   An approach favoured by some is just to link to this topic, also important in your case as it provides access to my copyright notice and source citations.

    Bernard C.  8)   
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: johnfandmaryp on February 10, 2007, 04:09:12 PM
    Thank you Bernard. I was wondering how to include your sources, so will link to here as you suggest.

    Regards, John.
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: Della on February 10, 2007, 04:15:30 PM

    Thank you for your reply, Bernard. It is much appreciated.
    He will just remain a glass fish in the cupboard for now.  ;D
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: Frank on February 10, 2007, 06:24:28 PM
    All fishes would be welcomed in the Zoo aquarium too please! Might start getting some more real identities

    (http://www.debook.com/animal/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/fb38c84b36a58cc64dde60f0b13dbeec.jpg)

    That one is Verrerie d'Art de Bendor.
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: johnfandmaryp on February 11, 2007, 12:57:06 AM
    Will get some pictures to you tomorrow, Frank.

    Think I've got another one somewhere but no ID for it yet, so will post that one too.

    Cheers, John.
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: Bernard C on February 11, 2007, 05:17:49 AM
    Della  — With Stephen Pollock-Hill's project to set up a small museum at Nazeing Glass Works, it may not be too long before he has enough fish and horses/ponies available to make a comparison worthwhile.

    ... and thanks.   I looked up horses/ponies in Timberlake, and we have a named glassmaker!   Apparently in 1963 Nazeing's Albert Beugnies, one of their Belgian workers, won joint first prize in a competition for friggers organised by The British Glass Manufacturers Federation.

    So was Albert Beugnies the creative genius behind the fish?   More than likely, I would think.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: Bernard C on February 11, 2007, 10:34:40 AM
    Quote
    ... won joint first prize in a competition for friggers organised by The British Glass Manufacturers Federation. ...

    Apologies for my English.   It was the competition that was organised by The British Glass Manufacturers Federation, not the friggers!   ... which rather neatly brings me on to the question: "What is a frigger?"

    I always understood a frigger to be anything from the equivalent of a pencilled doodle to a one-off made to swap for the beer consumed on the way home.   Once it became a production item, it stopped being a frigger.

    What is the authoritative chapter and verse on this question?

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: Frank on February 11, 2007, 10:51:09 AM
    Searching on the board brings up lots of discussion on frigger and there is consistency in general with what you say above but I also found an intriguing example of a standard production piece possible being classed as a figger, because it was made during wartime restrictions  ;D

    Quote from: Frank on April 22, 2006, 09:30:01 AM
    No it was not experimental but a standard piece made at the time of wartime restictions on the manufacture of decorative glassware. So it is a slightly illegal frigger as Monart was not officially in production.

    The making of friggers was not discouraged because it allowed glassworkers to improve their skills, and clearly, i.e. Whitefriars Ducks, it could also produce ideas that the factory could use as a product.

    Possibly best discussion of friggers: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,2327.msg17039.html#msg17039
    so aka Whimsy, End-of-day
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: aa on February 11, 2007, 06:22:11 PM
    Quote from: Bernard C on February 10, 2007, 10:55:12 AM
    The tail is a split continuation of the body, retaining the body colours, rather than an applied tail.   Bernard C.  8)

    Perhaps I can expand on this for clarification purposes. The tail was split by cutting into it with shears and that is why what John described as a "join" can remain rough if it is not fire polished sufficiently.
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: David E on February 11, 2007, 06:39:09 PM
    Quote from: Bernard
    What is the authoritative chapter and verse on this question?

    I actually started a new thread on this subject, to avoid trampling through this one (ho, hum):
    http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,9315.0.html

    In the third para. I mention a series of articles that I will photo next time I go to Himley Hall. This would give an earlier (1950s) definition of the term that might prove useful.
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: johnfandmaryp on February 11, 2007, 09:36:16 PM
    Thanks for that clarification aa ~ much appreciated!

    David ~ further clarification please! I understood from Bernard's original response that this item would have been sold wholesale but you seem to be implying in your 'new' post that it's a frigger which, by definition (if one can be agreed :)), wouldn't be a mass produced item. Or have I got hold of the wrong end of the stick?

    Thanks, John.
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: Lustrousstone on February 12, 2007, 07:41:08 AM
    Ithink David's saying that it was a production piece but that the Nazeing fish had its orgins in a frigger
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: johnfandmaryp on February 12, 2007, 09:16:26 AM
    That would make sense ~ Thanks, Christine. :)
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: sph@ngw on February 12, 2007, 04:01:05 PM
    Yes Murano! No not Nazeing. Nazeing fish never had an upturned tail and the lips are not so exaggerated. I can be quite sure of this as we have both the drawing from the Davidson catalogue and the photos of Achille Ducarreau.the Belgium craftsman teaching youngsters to make a fish!

    (http://www.ysartglass.com/Otherglass/Nazeing/Images/Nazeing-fishSPH.jpg)
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: johnfandmaryp on February 13, 2007, 01:07:05 AM
    Ahhhh  ???
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: nigel benson on February 13, 2007, 06:22:30 PM
    Hello All,

    Thank goodness for Stephen's reply!!

    Both the photo of a Nazeing fish that I have, and the drawing in Geoff Timberlake's book, show that the lips of a Nazeing fish are pulled out from the body of the glass, whereas, most other examples, including the one that started this thread, have an extra piece/trail of glass shaped over the opening to make the lips. More often than not this is clear glass. The effect is to make it look more like a beak, although maybe a little rounded at the end.

    The second major difference that I see is that there are two pairs of fins used to balance the fish on with the tail held clear above the display area - although this is difficult to visualise on the drawing, once you know, you realise that there is an angle to the one shown at the back, whilst it is not possible to show/see its pair. Even if it were one fin at the back, the tail would be held higher than the surface the fish sits upon.

    Lastly, the positioning of the fin near the eye is crucial. On the example shown it is both wrong, and too small - again, see the drawing shown in Geoff's book.

    Interestingly, both the fish and the horse shown in my reference are referred to as "Statuettes, or in a another language, as "Figurines" - not friggers.

    The only question I have is that the reference I have spells the glass blower as Achille Ducarreaux - with an "x" at the end. Can you say which is correct Stephen, or does it depend on the language it's printed in?

    Nigel 

    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: nigel benson on February 13, 2007, 09:07:38 PM

    Hello again,

    I've just revisted this thread and found that my entry above might be unclear to other readers. As I can no longer edit it, I thought that I should make it clear that the description (shown again below, with changes in brackets) refers to Nazeing fish.

    "The effect (being pulled out from the body) is to make it (the lips) look more like a beak, although maybe a little rounded at the end.

    The second major difference that I see is that (with Nazeing) there are two pairs of fins used to balance the fish on, with the tail held clear above the display area - although this is difficult to visualise on the drawing, once you know, you realise that there is an angle to the one shown at the back, whilst it is not possible to show/see it's pair. Even if it were one fin at the back, the tail would be held higher than the surface the fish sits upon.

    Lastly, the positioning of the fin near the eye (and its size) is crucial."

    Thanks, Nigel


    To the Moderators: Is there any chance that if there has been no reply to an entry then it could be edited at any reasonable time afterward? I occasionally find the one hour limit problematic. Only provided it was referred to as having been edited by the person changing it of course!!




    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: Frank on February 13, 2007, 09:16:33 PM
    The easiest solution is to rewrite your post, copy the text and then make the changes. A moderator can then delete the earlier version. If you have had replies and doing it that way cause problems of flow... then it is easy for the moderator to replace the original text. However this will only be done if it does not upset the thread flow...

    In the case of substantial discussion referring to your earlier text it is best to leave your corrections as additional comments in a new posting. This is then clearer to other people who have been following the thread.

    The point being that confusion is not sown by the changes. The time limit came about because edits to older posts had resulted in some threads being thrown completely out of sense.
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: johnfandmaryp on February 13, 2007, 11:35:34 PM
    Thank you for the detailed explanation, and the time you've obviously put into it, Nigel ~ much appreciated.
    Regards, John.
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: Frank on February 14, 2007, 09:25:57 PM
    A Nazeing fish image has been added to Stephen's post above link:

    http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,9293.msg79244.html#msg79244
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: Frank on February 14, 2007, 10:01:56 PM
    So now we seem to have a situation of a type of fish that does not conform to Murano or Nazeing fish. Where else have these been produced. The French ones I know of are clear glass.
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: johnfandmaryp on February 19, 2007, 09:40:55 AM
    I've now listed the fish as Murano(?) on eBay and have received a suggestion from someone that it may be AltaGlass (Canadian).

    I've had a look at a website which shows AltaGlass fish and, on comparing them, I don't think it is but I would appreciate any comments.

    Cheers, John.

    Website is
    AltaGlass (http://altaglass.ca/index.php?set_albumName=Fish&option=com_gallery&Itemid=30&include=view_album.php)

    mod: long link converted
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: Frank on February 19, 2007, 12:40:43 PM
    I can see why someone might think it possible, lips and eyes, but every other detail of technique, styling and tooling do not match!
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: johnfandmaryp on February 19, 2007, 12:44:50 PM
    Thanks for confirming my thoughts Frank ~ much appreciated :) John.
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: Frank on February 19, 2007, 03:23:22 PM
    Some more Nazeing fish

    http://www.ysartglass.com/Otherglass/Nazeing/NazeingG08.htm

    With thanks to Stephen.
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: Tigerchips on April 17, 2007, 06:49:20 PM
    May still be Murano, check out Item number: 330110100511 on ebay.  :-\

    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330110100511


    Moderator: Link added
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: Bernard C on April 18, 2007, 07:17:23 AM
    Thanks, TC.   I seem to have had this whole subject of Nazeing fish wrong.    I can't see anyone going to the trouble of moving that perfectly genuine Murano label on to a fish.    Also I can't envisage Belgian glassmakers making their fish on Murano, and then moving to Hertfordshire!

    Apologies to everyone for this.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: Frank on April 18, 2007, 08:33:21 AM
    Quote from: Bernard C on April 18, 2007, 07:17:23 AM
    Also I can't envisage Belgian glassmakers making their fish on Murano, and then moving to Hertfordshire!

    I can. In fact I consider it very likely! Who wants to track down the, possibly older, Belgian variants of this particular shaping/tooling and the variations of the apprentices?

    Who would have thought that an Austrian lad would become a glass-blower, follow stints various German and Scottish glassworks end up making Ysart style vases in Stourbridge. But he did
    http://www.ysartglass.com/Otherglass/HDreier.htm
    http://www.ysartglass.com/Otherglass/PTdialart.htm
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: Bernard C on April 18, 2007, 09:22:35 AM
    Frank — I think you are flogging a dead horse.

    However, may I make myself clear.   The fish with split tails that I formerly believed were Nazeing have changed status.   We have certainly not proved that they are not Nazeing, nor have we proved that they are Murano.   We have one example in a fairly homogeneous cased colour that is definitely Murano.   That cannot be extrapolated to attributing all split tail fish, particularly those with splashes of colour, to Murano.    Until more information emerges they are unattributable.

    Bernard C.  8)
    Title: Re: Confirmation that this is a Murano Fish, please!
    Post by: Tigerchips on May 04, 2007, 06:09:48 PM
    Quote from: Tigerchips on April 17, 2007, 06:49:20 PM
    May still be Murano, check out Item number: 330110100511 on ebay.  :-\

    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330110100511


    Moderator: Link added

    It must be an unusual colour, or I helped it's popularity.  ;D