Topic: Today's bargain. ID help please

[chopin-liszt]

 

I read; "Want pot" for the first line. 

[Paul S.]

this gothic script has a lot to answer for

However, back to the valuable contribution from Pamela, for which grateful thanks.           There has been an interval of several years since the exchange of communications between Jane Spillman and Herr Geiselberger, although since Pamela doesn't add anything more to what we can read, we must assume matters currently remain as discussed in 2006.             With regard to pressed glass, all these people are vastly more knowedgable than me, and so the following comments are really just my thinking out loud in an effort to understand what has been researched so far (and my mis-understanding possibly).

It appears to be agreed that Schiedt were wholesalers/importers selling French/American/English and German glass and certainly active in the latter part of the 1880's, although exactly when they started or ceased trading is less clear.

With regard to the platters that were the subject to the GMB threads, Mrs. Spillman comments in the Press-Korrespondenz article that ............."(the catalogue)  also has two bread platters with German inscriptions
which are identical to some with English inscriptions made at the Wear Flint Glass Works in Sunderland and I'm inclined to feel that these are English and not German".         
Although it's not clear (at least to me), I'm assuming that Mrs. Spillman's last comment refers to her consideration that it's the German inscription examples that she 'feels' were English and not German.       I'd thought initially that she'd been commenting about those with an English text, but having re-read her words, now believe I was wrong, and that my second thought was correct.            After all, the article states without doubt that English worded platters were made in England   -    so I'm assuming the lady is speaking of the German worded pieces.
If my understanding of this is wrong, I hope that somebody will put me right very quickly.      Is there any/much precedence for the manufacture of glass articles with wording, by one country for another, when there is a language difference?         I really don't know.

Unfortunatley, from the point of view of our English interest, Mrs. Spillman omits any source of provenance for the 'English inscription examples, which she says were made by the Wear Flint Glass Works.            I'm thinking here of a source of provenance from the literature.
According to Raymond Slack, Henry Greener (he of Henry Greener & Co.) in partnership with James Angus, took over a business in Trimdon Street (Sunderland) known as the Wear Flint Glass Works, in 1858  -  which I'm assuming is the same company of which Mrs. Spillman speaks.       This venture lasted a little less than 12 years - and from its inception in 1858 until its demise in 1869 it was re-named and traded as Angus & Greener.       This comment is just to make the point that the Wear Flint Glass Works seems to have ceased as a trading company in 1858 - so any wares made genuinely by them would have been produced prior to 1858, although I guess that Angus & Greener might easily have continued to use earlier moulds after 1858 (my speculation only, of course).    In view of the known approximate dates of Schiedt's catalogues, and the genuine trading dates of Wear Flint Glass Works - there seems a possible potential problem with overlap.

Apparently, there was another factory across the road, and which went under the name of the 'Wear Glass Works', and seems to have been active from something like 1837 to 1896, owned by James and John Hartley.

So, the bottom line might be...........all of these platters, with English and German text, were made in the U.K. in Sunderland.   It would be of interest to know the source of Mrs. Spillman's provenance for Sunderland, as unfortunately it seems that all known examples are unmarked.

Without looking in Thompson, I can't remember whether there are recorded examples of items manufactured by the Wear Flint Glass Works which do in fact carry registration diamonds, or whether all of that factory's wares were unmarked.

Please feel free to comment, whether good or bad - I'm just airing thoughts.

Ref.  'English Pressed Glass 1830 - 1900'   -    Raymond Slack   -  1987 

[Paul S.]

just to say that I've spoken to Jane Spillman today, and followed up with an email, requesting that if at all possible we'd be very interested to know the source of provenance for the Wear Flint Glass Works attribution, that has been given to these platters.
Will post any further information as and when this is provided.
P.S.    I have looked through the Design Rd. Nos./names for the period 1840 to 1860, although unable to see any mention of the above company name, so the source may well have been a catalogue illustration only.
I hadn't really thought before, but it seems odd that..............if the English wording examples were produced for the U.K., then why use a gothic script (I even wondered if this might have been in deference to Albert's demise)................alternatively, would a gothic script but English wording have been of any use in Germany.

[Sid]

Hello

A few comments:

1.  The two bread plates shown on Pamela's page are similar in design but are not the same when looking at the details.  Similarity is often indicative of copying instead of same maker.   We know that there was a fair bit of copying going on back in that period with several registered Davidson patterns having look alike (i.e. similar but not the same) versions made on the Continent.

2. I can't speak for the English makers but we can document at least one American maker (Campbell, Jones & Co. of Pittsburgh) that produced bread plates for the South American trade which bore the inscription in Spanish “Daynos hoy nuestro pan sobresubstancial,” which translates to "Give us this day our daily bread".  If one company did, then I suspect that others did as well.

3. 

Without looking in Thompson, I can't remember whether there are recorded examples of items manufactured by the Wear Flint Glass Works which do in fact carry registration diamonds, or whether all of that factory's wares were unmarked.

Paul - According to Thompson, there were many items registered by the variously named Greener companies from the 1860s up to the early 20th Century with the registrant's address specifying the Wear Flint Glass Works, Sunderland.   Wear Flint Glass Works is associated with Greener just as the Ellison Glass Works is associated with Sowerby.   

Sid

[Paul S.]

Hello Sid - thanks for your contribution, appreciated as always - and some further thoughts on these matters.

1/.........you're right about the matter of copying of well known pressed glass designs......it's on record that the British Pottery Gazette in 1880 made reference to a practise whereby iron moulds were being copied (and made in the U.K.) from Sowerby designs, then sent to Holland, where goods of an 'inferior quality' were sold on the Continent.    I wasn't aware of the similar situation affecting Davidson, but the problem was obviously of sufficient annoyance to give cause for concern.
As regards these platters in particular, I'm unable to comment as to whether any of them might be copies of official designs  -  it's possible that any pressed designs which didn't carry trade marks or Rd. Nos. were open to easier copying.

2/............I guess this rather moralistic/religious type of motto appealed to Victorians as you say, and we have other British examples - one of which ironically has as its source James Hartley of the Wear Glass Works, and is another of the 'GIVE US THIS DAY OUR DAILY BREAD mottos (source is Sheilagh Murray - 'The Peacock And The Lions').

3/............However, in the light of your comments regarding Thompson and the items registered by the various Greener company names -  the matter is possibly a little less clear than I had thought originally.

The Pressglas-Korrespondenz article refers specifically to the Wear Flint Glass Works  -  which according to Slack and Lattimore was in fact the company name (not an address), and according to Lattimore was one of two important early C19 glass factories in Sunderland.         It was the fact that Mrs. Spillman referred to this name and not to any of the Greener variations that led me to believe the implication was that these platters had been made prior to the existance of Angus and Greener (i.e. prior to 1858).      I'm not aware that the name Wear Flint Glass Works was used, commercially, after 1858 - certainly the trading name from the Trimdon Street address appears to have been known only as Angus and Greener, and had it been known that these pieces were made by one of the Greener companies, I'd have assumed this would have been stated rather than quoting the name Wear Flint Glass Works.     Angus and Greener remained at Trimdon Street for something like twelve years, I belive.
As I've already commented, it would appear that there are no registrations under the company name of Wear Flint Glass Works - although as you quite rightly point out there are registrations for the various Greener company names - starting with 21st December 1858 (for Angus and Greener) - the address for which is given as Wear Flint Glass Works, Sunderland.................in my mind thus confusing the issue between a company name and an address.

My apologies that this is rather long and confusing, possibly..........it may well be that Mrs. Spillman was suggesting simply that these items were made in Sunderland, but perhaps was unsure that the manufacturing company was likely to have been one of the Greener variants.         Certainly it appears all too easy to pick up on the NAME of Wear Flint Glass Works and assume it was that company (rather than Greener) that made these platters. especially when the British Board of Trade Registers use the EXACT same name for the address of Greener!!

Of course, I hope that Mrs. Spillman will be able to add some conclusive information to this - so that we can all go to bed with the matter resolved.