Topic: Spiraloptish vase but Kralik or not?

[glassobsessed]

Definitely not Loetz but is there any doubt this small vase is from Kralik? Asking as Craig has removed the Spiraloptish pages from Kralik.com for the time being.

Alfredo shows another in pink plus two inkwells here: http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/38253-kralik-discobolus-inkwells-spiralopt

John

[flying free]

I found it here under Welz Spiraloptisch oops - I just came across it when I typed it in, but it appears both pages have been removed so I've removed the link ... sorry.
I like that shape as well as it looks as though it was blown into a wire frame
m

[obscurities]

I have continued to look at these. There are a few different shapes that Alfredo and others say are Kralik, but I have not yet decided exactly what goes on with these.

The Welz attribution is one, that to me carries some strength based on some shapes and a couple of kind of unique examples. 

There is, at least in my mind, the possibility that both Kralik and Welz may have done the decor.  One of the issues I have that bothers me about these Spiraloptisch pieces being attributed to Kralik is that the shapes they are found on generally are not found in other Kralik decors. 

This shape above is one that is very similar to a Kralik form that is found in green with veining on it.

Al bases his Kralik attribution on the fact that the decor is found on inkwells, therefore Kralik did them and not Welz.... He bases that on his belief that Welz did not produce inkwelss. I am not so sure of that.... I do not know at this point that they did, but also do not know that they did not.  Al also attributes a draped decor found on vases and inkwells alike as being Kralik, yet the decor is shown on a vase in Passau in a shape that is is not seen in any other Kralik decor, and it is in the Welz case which he claims is a mistake....  I do not agree.... the shape is unique and the rim treatment is also unique and bears a strong resemblance to another vase in a Welz decor in the same case.  Draped is also an example of a decor that both houses may have produced.

So for now, the decor has been pulled from my site until I can establish more solid information as to who, or how many companies did it.  I am attaching a couple of examples of pieces which are the root cause for the confusion with this decor.

The green veined piece is a very similar, and commonly seen shape from Kralik, yet Spiraloptish is not seen on this form, only on the one above which is definitely different. 

The green piece I am adding with the unusual rim on it is a shape never seen in any other Kralik decor, and the rim folds are also not seen on any other Kralik form. It is also the only example of the decor on that form that has ever been seen.  It is the same rim treatment as seen on the attached example which is a decor that is unique to Welz as far as I am aware.....

Lastly, there is an example with this same unusual rim treatment in an overshot style not known as a Kralik style of overshot, and in Spiraloptisch. This is also the only example of this type I am aware of.

These examples, and a couple of others point towards Welz for me, at least for some of the examples....

So the controversy and debate will likely continue on for a while. 

[obscurities]

I am also adding an image of the Welz case shelf with the Draped example and a quite similar vase shown with it. There is also an additional example of the Draped decor in the same case but I do not have a clear image of it.

So to me at least, ruling out Welz as a production house for a decor based on inkwells does not completely hold water. If the attribution in Passau for the draped on the unique shape is accurate, which I believe it is, then the draped decor on the Discobolus inkwells could possibly be by both Welz and Kralik. 

[flying free]

not my vase I know but thank so much for taking the time to explain - it makes very good sense.
I love those large Welz vases ... I don't see anything like those over here.
m

[glassobsessed]

Thank you for explaining Craig, I must admit that Alfredo's three pink spiral bits in the CW link had me close to convinced, my only doubt was the colour which I did not associate with Kralik.

It will have to remain as a 'possibly' for now, keeping the various options open. If I see anything interesting and relevant on my travels I will snap a photo. In general terms I would be surprised if Kralik was the only maker of such inkwells, we usually find where one company was successful others noticed and tried to take a slice of the pie for themselves.

I like that shape as well as it looks as though it was blown into a wire frame

Yes superb shape, that is what attracted me to this piece, the 'alternating' lobes are really effective. I was surprised when I could not find a definite Kralik decor in this shape such as Mother of Pearl.

John