Topic: show and a little bit of tell :) box and underplate c1850

[flying free]

Immaculate with most of the gilding still intact.  It's old quite matt gilding which glitters but my lighting doesn't show it glittering unfortunately.  Never mind.

Very bright apple green uranium chrysopras glass and white alabasterglas. 
The quality is absolutely excellent.  The underplate has a polished pontil mark and handcut rim .  The gilder has gilded a number 8 on the base. The bowl has a large polished pontil mark over the entire base right to the edges and the rim is firepolished.
The lid rim edge is polished so beautifully that there is no flat rim, it's entirely smooth and curved.

I think it's pretty likely to be unique 


Dates most likely to c.1850-1860.

Neuwelt were producing melon (and marrow) form boxes and underplates from the 1840s.  The Neuwelt to the Whole World  book shows one in blue alabaster glass (lapiz) with underplate dating to c.1845 page 123 - sorry photos are copyright. They discuss these forms as being butter boxes or sugar boxes (and the much larger versions as punch bowls).  There is a drawing included with a horizontal form like the one linked below and a vertical form i.e. similar format to mine 'Drawing of compote bowls (SOA Zamrsk, HSNS, Book K 1155, Facturen Buch, 1846-1850, pg90)'.  I think that's from the invoice books.

In Das Bohmische Glas  Band II there are a couple but in horizontal form in ridged cut cased glass, where the book dates to c.1860 but according to this link the Josephinenhutte book (Zelasko) dates one to c.1850:
https://portal-images.azureedge.net/auctions-2017/fischer10027/images/fbde7990-5da9-478f-91e5-a78d00cf99b4.jpg?w=1920&h=1920&mode=max
https://www.lot-tissimo.com/de-de/auction-catalogues/dr-fischer/catalogue-id-fischer10027/lot-4ac9277e-b346-468c-96b8-a78d00cc2fc2

The Stadtmuseum Berlin has this dating to mid 1800s:
https://sammlung-online.stadtmuseum.de/Details/Index/1518763

This piece is a match for the colour green and the combination and has some similar cutting and is dated 1851 on the piece:
https://p1.liveauctioneers.com/524/61129/30433224_1_x.jpg?quality=80&version=1411050742
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/30433224_tazza-mit-schlangeauflage



Maker -
Possibly Schachtenbach - or possibly Sklárna Annín

The piece linked here sold by Dr Fischer auctions in 2014 given as Schachtenbach or Bohemian
https://p1.liveauctioneers.com/524/61129/30433224_1_x.jpg?quality=80&version=1411050742


For  Sklárna Annín (see photo link where the colour and two tone alabaster is a match for my box):
https://www.annin-glass.cz/muzeum/#&gid=1&pid=2
https://www.annin-glass.cz/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Annin_150620_02.jpg

however from the info linked below it would be before 1849 I think when Loetz's widow gave up the lease.  Difficult to tell as I don't know if Loetz moved to another production factory (can't remember) and open to correction:
https://pamatkovykatalog.cz/sklarna-annin-s-vilou-a-hrobkou-rodiny-schmidu-14197416


I think it's most likely to be from Schachtenbach and most likely dates to c.1850.



m

[flying free]

Hope this works - pic against white background so the gold can be seen glittering rather than just flat as it is against the black background.

[flying free]

Neuwelt were producing melon (and marrow) form boxes and underplates from the 1840s.  The Neuwelt to the Whole World  book shows one in blue alabaster glass (lapiz) with underplate dating to c.1845 page 123 - sorry photos are copyright. They discuss these forms as being butter boxes or sugar boxes (and the much larger versions as punch bowls).  There is a drawing included with a horizontal form like the one linked below and a vertical form i.e. similar format to mine 'Drawing of compote bowls (SOA Zamrsk, HSNS, Book K 1155, Facturen Buch, 1846-1850, pg90)'.  I think that's from the invoice books.

In Das Bohmische Glas  Band II there are a couple but in horizontal form in ridged cut cased glass, where the book dates to c.1860 but according to this link the Josephinenhutte book (Zelasko) dates one to c.1850:
https://portal-images.azureedge.net/auctions-2017/fischer10027/images/fbde7990-5da9-478f-91e5-a78d00cf99b4.jpg?w=1920&h=1920&mode=max
https://www.lot-tissimo.com/de-de/auction-catalogues/dr-fischer/catalogue-id-fischer10027/lot-4ac9277e-b346-468c-96b8-a78d00cc2fc2

Interestingly, in the book Farbenglas I, Neuwirth, pp209 there is a photo of a transparent dark green ("Chrysolithglas")marrow shaped (horizontal) box with stalk on a leaf form plate.  The plate is gilded with veins and the serrated edges are also gilded and the box is gilded with horizontal stripes and looks more or less the same design as the pink one in the link above, with the exception that the stalk is smooth and gilded not cut angularly.
Edited - managed to find a link to a photo of that piece in the Farbenglas book here:
https://www.agefotostock.com/age/en/details-photo/melon-shaper-sugar-bowl-on-a-leaf-shaped-saucer-manufactured-by-lobmeyr-before-1840-austria-19th-century-vienna-technisches-museum-technical-museum/DAE-A2001836/1

 It dates to prior to 1840.

From book -  quote '1840 acquired from Josef Lobmeyr Vienna'.'Technical Museum Vienna inv. Nos. TH 12106, 12107'


Also in the book From Neuwelt to the Whole World there is a lidded box and curved rim underplate, richly cut all over with the stalk lid, dating to 1830s.  It's described as egg form as it's portrait and a similar shape to my set. 

So this form is well established from 1830s really and the different colours and decors seems to be a natural progression depending on the fashion of glass.
They are variously described as Butter boxes or sugar boxes and also confection boxes - perhaps for jams or sweets or serving fruit?

[Anne]

What an amazing piece M, I've never seen the like before so can't add to the discussion, but I am following with interest.

[flying free]

Thanks It is a really amazing piece.  It's heavy and I would describe it as absolutely top quality opaline glass and top quality production and finish.  However, it is fragile in design with the stalk and all the cut edges around the underplate so I'm thrilled but think it's unbelievable it's survived it's 170 years intact. 

The set is 15.5cm in diameter and 15cm in height.


It actually arrived with an old but unused fleece powder puff with silk ribbon inside it.  I'm not sure it was original to the piece hence my looking for what they described the boxes for.  I'm inclined to think that as it's a vegetable/fruit form with the leaf plate then it would be for food not powder so I think that might be a red herring.

[flying free]

The Sklárna Annín link is interesting.  Looking at the bright green curved rim at the top of the tall piece, it is also gilded along the top of the rim as is mine.  It can just be seen glinting in the light when the pic is enlarged:

https://www.annin-glass.cz/muzeum/#&gid=1&pid=2

https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=71293.0;attach=245363;image



Video here from the Museum showing the pieces at 1.04 -  with PhDr Jitka Lněničková  Glass Historian

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi2laSKcyM4

Unfortunately my understanding of Czech language is non existent 


And because it's important to show, here is a recent and beautifully shot  video of the glasshouse in 2018 :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q79zHAm-TZU

[flying free]

A little more information on the history of the glassworks and timeframe here in an English format:

https://www.gabreta.info/gabreta/fr.asp?tab=gabstezcz&id=829&burl=&pt=STS1&lng=en

[flying free]

Immaculate with most of the gilding still intact.  It's old quite matt gilding which glitters but my lighting doesn't show it glittering unfortunately.  Never mind.

Very bright apple green uranium chrysopras glass and white alabasterglas. 
The quality is absolutely excellent.  The underplate has a polished pontil mark and handcut rim .  The gilder has gilded a number 8 on the base. The bowl has a large polished pontil mark over the entire base right to the edges and the rim is firepolished.
The lid rim edge is polished so beautifully that there is no flat rim, it's entirely smooth and curved.

I think it's pretty likely to be unique 


Dates most likely to c.1850-1860.

Neuwelt were producing melon (and marrow) form boxes and underplates from the 1840s.  The Neuwelt to the Whole World  book shows one in blue alabaster glass (lapiz) with underplate dating to c.1845 page 123 - sorry photos are copyright. They discuss these forms as being butter boxes or sugar boxes (and the much larger versions as punch bowls).  There is a drawing included with a horizontal form like the one linked below and a vertical form i.e. similar format to mine 'Drawing of compote bowls (SOA Zamrsk, HSNS, Book K 1155, Facturen Buch, 1846-1850, pg90)'.  I think that's from the invoice books.

In Das Bohmische Glas  Band II there are a couple but in horizontal form in ridged cut cased glass, where the book dates to c.1860 but according to this link the Josephinenhutte book (Zelasko) dates one to c.1850:
https://portal-images.azureedge.net/auctions-2017/fischer10027/images/fbde7990-5da9-478f-91e5-a78d00cf99b4.jpg?w=1920&h=1920&mode=max
https://www.lot-tissimo.com/de-de/auction-catalogues/dr-fischer/catalogue-id-fischer10027/lot-4ac9277e-b346-468c-96b8-a78d00cc2fc2

The Stadtmuseum Berlin has this dating to mid 1800s:
https://sammlung-online.stadtmuseum.de/Details/Index/1518763

This piece is a match for the colour green and the combination and has some similar cutting and is dated 1851 on the piece:
https://p1.liveauctioneers.com/524/61129/30433224_1_x.jpg?quality=80&version=1411050742
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/30433224_tazza-mit-schlangeauflage



Maker -
Possibly Schachtenbach - or possibly Sklárna Annín

The piece linked here sold by Dr Fischer auctions in 2014 given as Schachtenbach or Bohemian
https://p1.liveauctioneers.com/524/61129/30433224_1_x.jpg?quality=80&version=1411050742


For  Sklárna Annín (see photo link where the colour and two tone alabaster is a match for my box):
https://www.annin-glass.cz/muzeum/#&gid=1&pid=2
https://www.annin-glass.cz/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Annin_150620_02.jpg

however from the info linked below it would be before 1849 I think when Loetz's widow gave up the lease.  Difficult to tell as I don't know if Loetz moved to another production factory (can't remember) and open to correction:
https://pamatkovykatalog.cz/sklarna-annin-s-vilou-a-hrobkou-rodiny-schmidu-14197416


I think it's most likely to be from Schachtenbach and most likely dates to c.1850.



m

Another reference for my box dating to c.1850s - perhaps c.1853/54  given this vase which was exhibited at the New York Exhibition 1853/1854?:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,66718.msg372814.html#msg372814


Evidence here of the illustration of that vase in the thread in the Exhibition catalogue of 1853/1854:

https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,66718.msg401845.html#msg401845

https://books.google.co.uk/books/content?id=Zjk_AAAAcAAJ&pg=RA1-PA109&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&bul=1&sig=ACfU3U0eZQYs0GprEKefoXRBmzqlTqqKpw&w=1025

[chopin-liszt]

  Lovely thread and lots of info, fascinating. I can only say thank-you!

[flying free]

You're welcome Sue

It's always great to find contemporary to period documentary evidence as in the vase that another poster put on the board. 

m