Topic: Venini incalmo vase...Bianconi?

[Artofvenice]

Dear Martyn,
I work in Murano, going every week inside different studios and I have seen so many reproductions, real fakes or just pieces made "in the spirit of". So, may be because of this, but I'm always very cautious with glass Identifications. Also I have seen that the productions of the famous brands are so often outsourced to small studios; it means that the same design can be blow by different people in the time. The studio often produces that glasswork for the brand company, or for resale as "no name" glass or for (not honest) resellers who add the fake signature (also by acid): at this point if the glasswork comes from the same hands how to distinguish? And how to consider it? Fake or not?
I can tell you that for each original there are at least one very well done reproduction and at least 10 lower quality pieces in the same spirit. For these reasons I'm always very careful in the identification.
Sincerely

Alex

www.artofvenice.com

[Martyn K]

Hi Alex,

thanks for your opinion but I'm sure you'll understand if I respectfully disagree.

To answer a couple of points, it is 'real incalmo,' the join is perfectly evident close up and more so on the inside with some small bubble trapped where the two parts were fused. I'm also certain that it is'nt of recent manufacture and although the use of fake acid stamps is not unheard of it is certainly very rare, when a simple engraved mark would be sufficient for the faker and infinately easier why go to all the effort?

I cant argue with you that it is'nt a well known Venini production design that you recognise, that's why I asked the initial question, but to brand it as fake on the basis of two small photos on an open forum is I think a less than cautious approach, after all without an identical documented example it is impossible for me to refute your belief and even were I find it's identical brother it could still be claimed mine was a copy.

As you rightly point out without physically holding it in your hands there is only so much one can say with any confidence, but since I have the privalage of being able to do exactly that and compare it with my other period Venini pieces I hope you will forgive me on this occasion for not sharing your doubts as to its authenticity.

I may be wrong...

Respectfully,
Martyn

Since some questions have been openly raised about this vase I'd be very interested in everyones opinions.

[Artofvenice]

Dear Martyn,
you have the piece in your hands and therefore only you can verify the balance between weight and dimensions, the incalmo connection, real colours, etc., etc.
If it is hard to be sure about the authenticity of glassworks (post 2nd war) having it in your hands, it is much more risky to do it just looking at two small photos, I agree with you at 100% about it. I just wrote my feelings about the piece in photo: a) (much) more thick than other venini pieces of the same era, b)  the incalmo looks less clear; but these details should be verified directly on the real piece, not only with a small photo.

In general I don't care too much about the signature. Too easy to reproduce. The acid ones are less popular, but there are people who do it, in Murano as abroad. Also identical photos from books and catalogues aren't a guarantee; they are the base to make most part of the classic productions! Imho the real piece and the "feelings" when you touch it are the best source of informations.
The quantity of reproduction that I have seen is so high that I have a kind of natural doubtful approach, sorry...  

Sincerely

Alex

www.artofvenice.com

[Martyn K]

The quantity of reproduction that I have seen is so high that I have a kind of natural doubtful approach.
www.artofvenice.com

Generally a very wise approach I think!

Best wishes,
Martyn.

[Andy]

A very interesting and respectful discussion
It would be interesting to get more views from other Murano collectors on the piece!

Good luck,
Andy

[Martyn K]

One more (rather poor) photo showing the join and a trapped bubble between the two sections.

[TxSilver]

I do not know Venini things well, so I haven't commented before. My first impression of the vase was that it was similar to Bianconi, but it did not look exactly the same. I hadn't seen a two-part Bianconi piece, though he may have designed some, and the rim looked more round. What Alex said about thickness of the glass explains this, of course.

My thoughts were that it may not be Bianconi, but it may be someone else who worked with Venini. Have you checked the signature with known Venini signatures? There are often small variations in the fakes. (The main trouble here is that often the signatures are so faint or worn that it is hard to tell.) Often when we think of Venini, we think of the more famous designers. There were other designers with names we may not be as familiar. My original thought were perhaps one had done the vase.

If you are satisfied that the signature is legit, then I think there is nothing wrong with selling the piece as Venini if you are honest with your reasoning about the attribution. If the only things we can trust are signatures and labels, and we can't even trust them, we have nothing we can use to attribute. I hope that you are able to find the designer of the vase. It would make it so much easier. I'm not ready to put your vase in the reproduction boneyard just yet. I have a couple of pieces in that yard and it is not a good feeling.

There are some pictures of Venini signatures and an address to write for information at http://www.jetsetmodern.com/greatglass1.htm. You are probably already familiar with the signtures on the Losch's site at http://www.the-loschs.com/sigitaly.htm. There is another very good link about Venini fake signtures online, but I have forgotten the link. I'll see if I can find it again.

Anita

[Laura Friedman]

Even better, you can write Venini directly through their website. The last time I did it, I got a prompt and informative response from their staff historian, who gave me the year of production of my piece, the number of items issued, and the original retail price.

Let us know what they say.

Laura

[Martyn K]

Love the image of the boneyard! I've a few thrown out there already dont worry I'm not about to add this to the pile...

The mark is partial which is'nt surprising given it's on a curved surface but what is there conforms with those I have and those shown online, (it's the one shown No.4 page 341 in 'Italain Glass' Ricke, Schmitt) but maybe they're all fake? and there lies the interesting question that Alex raised.

I also posted this Venini marked paperweight..http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,19258.0.html ....I cant find a similar PW of that period (46-66) and it appears noone else on the board immeadiatly recognises it, so following the cautionary principal should I assume it's another fake? I dont believe so.

When buying I agree it's nearly always sensible to play on the safe side, few of us have money to throw away and there are of plenty fakes in all areas of collecting, but when judging a pieces authenticity I believe we must start from a neutral standpoint. This is in no way a criticism of Alex who gave some sound reasons for his opinion based on experience, but did appear to be saying to some extent that since the fakes outnumber the genuine pieces and this piece does'nt look familiar (seem to fit the expected norm) then it follows that it's a fake.

I recieved an email this morning about a piece of pottery I have listed on ebay saying I had misattributed it. They were 100% confident in their view that it was by another (lesser) potter, so much so that for a while I thought they must be right and rushed to recheck the mark and even started to feel a little stupid at having made the mistake. They were wrong! Honestly wrong, as both potters marks and styles are very similar from a small photo I can see how they came to thier conclusion, but in the absence of good reference given their unwaivering confidence it would have been very easy for me to simply take their word for it.

I've emailed Venini before about another piece and like you Laura got a very nice reply confirming that one was a Bianconi design, but when I looked on thier site before posting this I could'nt find the same contact link (only one for potential dealers)...I'll have another look, and certainly post any reply.

Thank you all for your thoughtful input.

[Laura Friedman]

Martyn,

Great post.

I think your weight is Venini. Even though I don't recognize the exact design, the canes and style are consistent with their work from that period.  I'd guess it was late 1950s.  That opinion, plus $3.75, is worth about a cup of coffee.

Laura