Topic: Vocabulary: Describe this wine-glass in not less than 100 words!

[KevinH]

Anne said:

Interesting that it says penny licks were banned in 1926, as my mother ... remembers them ... in the 1930s.

That's a good point. If the Internet is used as a source of info on "Penny licks" different versions of "facts" and dates can be found but input from people who actually used the items can often open a discussion even further.

Jay said:

The only audience I care about communicating with is the present company, not some 80 year old tome which is gonna be totally out of date in it's useage and context (?!)

Oh dear! I find that sort of view to be very negative as it suggests a complete dismissal of all earlier sources, whether they are correct or not. Also, the information presented by people in this board is surely heavily influenced by the "80 year old tomes" (as well as later lieterature using the older details). If we ignore the earlier definitions and descriptions, all we are left with is brand new thinking. But this discussion clearly relies on older terminology, otherwise, why raise all the questions about it.

Perhaps, Jay, you should present a full list of completely new, modern names and descriptions to cover all aspects of the glassware you are considering. Then other GMB members can discuss them but with full disregard to any existing terms and finally they can be ratified and made known to the world as "Jay's glass terms as agreed by GMB members". Yes, I am being rather flippant, but with a serious point in mind - inventing new terms where existing ones are adequate (albeit needing some clarification in some cases) is not the way to go.

Frank said, about the "Penny licks":

... they are a huge collecting field with immense variety.

Now that's the sort of comment I like to see. I admit that my knowledge of "Penny licks" is very limited and my initial comment / question about the lack of info on these items in glass books (the ones I have) is still something for which I would like to learn more. Given the "huge collectng field" of these items, is there any specialist literature that covers them? There is certainly nothing obvious that I can find online.

[nigel benson]

Hi,

I was just about to compose a reply when I was warned that there was a fresh posting - Kevin's.

Oh dear! I find that sort of view to be very negative as it suggests a complete dismissal of all earlier sources, whether they are correct or not. Also, the information presented by people in this board is surely heavily influenced by the "80 year old tomes" (as well as later lieterature using the older details). If we ignore the earlier definitions and descriptions, all we are left with is brand new thinking. But this discussion clearly relies on older terminology, otherwise, why raise all the questions about it.

I fully agree Kevin.

Let's not try to re-invent the wheel here! For instance there are already a huge range of accepted terms for different types and shapes of knop, and the shapes that may connect them to another knop, or to the bowl of the glass.

Yes, terms such as 'ogee' do have a relationship to furniture and hence architecture, as you suggest Jay, however I fear that the only way to fully understand these sorts of relationships is to get hold of copies of the books you (sadly) seem to dislike, read 'em and gain the understanding you need for the task you describe. I seriously doubt there is a short cut to achieving this - particularly not surfing the Internet, since the information your require doesn't seem to be out there in the form you need it in.

Unfortunately, my experience of this board is that there are no regular contributors who fully understand the terms you need through their own collecting or dealing, so although we may be able to piece things together, who is there to confirm the validity of the conclusions, unless they are well established terms? Once they are out of the general remite I feel we may create terms that have already been established elsewhere. Maybe we can coaxe someone out there to help?

Perhaps on a more positive note, maybe finding and talking to reputabe dealers who know this period of glass and who use the terms, having learnt them from others and/or done the reading may help be far more to you.

By the way 'Bickerton' was re-printed by the Antique Collectors Club sometime ago and I've even seen copies of it at reduced price book stands at fairs in the UK.

Nigel

[Jay]

I was being slightly inflamatory, guys. mea Culpa. (but I'm probably gonna inflame again) mea maxima culpa!

However the point I was trying to make was that I cannot be restricted to a vocabulary that was written before the emergence of the relevant technical developments.

My main use for it would actually be that I would carefully avoid any conflict in names or definitions.

In the early days of the 'common market' there were endless meetings to agree standards, from the sizes of screws to the naming of roads. Now we see the benefits of this systemisation. I'm just pleading for a 'standard dictionary' or glass wiki! so that we can improve our descriptions for the next generation. Where there are conflicting definitions then they can be 'moderated'!
('ogee' seems like a good example! of a term which can't just be adopted without an explanatory definition/derivation.)

IMHO...
If Bickerton is the preferred 'standard' then it should be diseminated by internet (by this board?), and if each member of this forum is expected to search for an original copy and pay through the nose for it, then it won't be the standard for very long, methinks ?!

(Out on a limb on my own, but singing a happy tune!)

P.S. Kev, there's bound to be a very obscure old book about penny licks somewhere (I've met several collectors, myself) which you can pay a fortune to try and obtain, but I note that your first thought was to look online! ;-)

[josordoni]

Bickerton - yes mine is the ACC version - this is a fully revised edition, with lots more pictures than the earlier one.  Not messed about, but properly revised by Bickerton.  Cost about £35 through Abe books, and worth its weight in gold.

[Frank]

Excessive dissemination through the GMB would potentially impact copyright. Unless the terms are quoted in response to particular questions and give the source.

To achieve what you want to do and put it on the Internet can only be done, with any authority, by studying 80+ year old books so that suitable judgements can be made on the roots of terms and how their use has developed and changed over time. Additionally for the Internet you will need to include UK and American terminology. Collecting drinking glasses was the main area of glass collecting and study over a long period and remains a sub-world of glass collecting that largely ignores the 20th century. The web is riddled with resources that have not been well researched and there is no substitute for doing a job well.

The reason that many of the terms are meaningless to many people is largely cultural and that there is not a significant body of on-line collectors of this area.

A Glass-Study member has just commenced a project to address the motif's on cut glass - this study will not only be based on existing collecting literature but also original manufacturers descriptions. The project will not be a short one as it involves wide consultation and will conform to the appropriate standards. It requires, as with all good research, no special skills but an enthusiastic interest in the area and readiness to study a lot and to take advice from those more learned.

[KevinH]

However the point I was trying to make was that I cannot be restricted to a vocabulary that was written before the emergence of the relevant technical developments.

Ah, that seems to suggest that your lists would use new vocabularly for each and every new technical development for which a term or description is not already covered in the existing literature. Sounds like a task that is even more complicated than I imagined by just inventing new terms.

'ogee' seems like a good example! of a term which can't just be adopted without an explanatory definition/derivation

Newman's Illustrated Diictionary of Glass ... gives: "Ogee - A shape or ornamentation in the form of a double curve, as in the letter S. It is sometimes continued to form a DOUBLE OGEE." Is that a reasonale defintion?

If Bickerton is the preferred 'standard' ...

I don't think it is considered as any sort of standard for terminology. It was just (probably) the best work of its time in covering a whole range of English drinking glasses. The terms used in the book were not invented (as far as I can tell) by Bickerton - and in any case, I have already shown that Bickerton has fewer terms described than in at least one of the older books, so it can't be regarded as a "standard".

P.S. Kev, there's bound to be a very obscure old book about penny licks somewhere (I've met several collectors, myself) which you can pay a fortune to try and obtain, but I note that your first thought was to look online! ;-)

Well, I had said that I looked online, but that was not my "first thought" - my first thought was, "Is there a book covering "Penny licks" and showing examples?". Do you still have contact with any of the several collectors you have met - and, if so, could you ask them if such a book exists?

[josordoni]

I don't think it is considered as any sort of standard for terminology. It was just (probably) the best work of its time in covering a whole range of English drinking glasses. The terms used in the book were not invented (as far as I can tell) by Bickerton - and in any case, I have already shown that Bickerton has fewer terms described than in at least one of the older books, so it can't be regarded as a "standard".

Kev, when I asked the antique glass valuer at the auction where I bought my glasses what she recommended, she advised me to get Bickerton, as that was the book that was now treated as a standard by the collectors and antique glass dealers.  May not be the case, of course, but interesting that was the only book that she was prepared to recommend.  The fact that it is so copiously illustrated is very useful, as there are so many slight variations to consider.

[KevinH]

... that was the book that was now treated as a standard by the collectors and antique glass dealers ...

I believe it was regarded as "a new standard reference work" for 18th C. drinking glasses, but not that the terminology contained was any sort of standard. That's a good example of how information gets "distorted" by innocent word of mouth and subsequent interpretation - nobody is "wrong" in what they say or understand but the real facts are not fully passed on. [This assumes, of course, that my own belief is correct!]

Edited to correct spelling errors - posserbly not awl of them!

[josordoni]

I think in the end, with most terminology not just glass,  that certain things acquire "standard" status just because a majority of people find the term descriptive and/or useful, and use it to the exclusion of other terms.

For example, I would be much more likely to refer to a pontil mark these days than a punty, although in theory the two terms should be equally useable ( edit:  shouldn't they? or am I wrong?). Somehow punty just doesn't sound right to me.  Ithink it is just that I have heard pontil more often and my ear is now attuned to it.

[KevinH]

Depending on who you speak with (and which country has been the major influence on their vocabulary) "Punty" should strictly be used only for the iron that is used to gather the glass. The mark left after detaching the glass from the punty is regarded by some glassworkers as simply a part of the finishing - and may just be described as "unfinished".

However, "punty" seems to have been based on "pontil" (from the French) but was not adopted in all English-speaking countries, hence "pontil" continued in use, or has since superseded "punty" where that was used.

But you are right about the point that many terms, like "pontil mark", have become a standard - at least amongst collectors. It's interesting that "pontil mark" has a 9-line description in Newman's book, but "punty" was excluded as if it never existed in any of the sources he used!

We have discussed "punty" and "pontil" elsewhere in the board. Here's a couple of instances where those working in the glass industry have commented:
"Unmelted, melted or double melted?"
"Glass Technology - The Pontil or Punty"(In that message, there is a comment by Ivo that neatly sums up what I believe is current thinking on the subject!)