Topic: Enameled Vases - French?

[Ivo]

Legras is most likely, and yes it looks as if stoppers are missing.

[Andy]

Hi Shannon,
(sorry replied to Kristy in an earlier post, i meant you, its the Guinness you know )

How tall are they?
I feel they are probably vases, and are not missing stoppers!
Cheers,
Andy

[shandiane78]

They are about 7 1/2 inches tall. Small for decanters imo, and if they were cruets, I guess I'd expect a handle and a pouring lip...?

[Cathy B]

For holding cologne perhaps? I once saw what I'd assumed was a decanter, (onion-shaped like yours, with a simple thumbnail decor and star cut to the base), with a stopper (I think it may have been cork, but that's stretching the memory) and a perfume label. I remember the label quite clearly because it surprised me. This was before I was into glass, and I'm kicking myself that I never bought it (for reference).

[KevinH]

Couldn't resist this.

They are about 7 1/2 inches tall. Small for decanters imo ...

Other folk have thought much the same too.

Now for a magic trick:
Roll up, roll up! Ladies and gentleman, before your very eyes ... as you all know, if it's only 7.5 inches (19 cm) it's must be a vase or something, not a decanter ... and here they are, two very different but good looking vases (or something) ... Look at these. Yes, that's right ... the measure shows they are even smaller than 7.5 inch (19 cm), and no stoppers, so they must be ...

But wait ... with a wave of my hand ... suddenly the one on the right gains a stopper and, wow! doesn't it now look just like a decanter.

And, if I were to show a copy of Venetian Glass, Confections In Glass 1855-1914, open at pages 52 & 53, there would be seen several decanters, some with, some without stoppers. Two of them would match the shape and style of decoration as my "vase (or something)" on the left of the picture above. Those in the book closely matching mine are stated as 9 inch without a stopper, so mine is simply a bit smaller. But does that mean it's not a decanter?

Seriously folks, it is quite right to question things when doubts arise. But it is much better to check out as many options as possible before making a basic statement of opinion that itself is not backed up with good evidence.

I am not having a go at anyone and I am not trying to upset people. It's just that when several folk have offered the same or similar opinion on something (which may or may not always include good evidence), it needs rather more than yet another unverified opinion to begin to change things around. Otherwise we all end up going round in circles.

I believe my photos and comments are adeqaute proof that decanters of different types and decoration can be less than 7.5 inch (19 cm) without a stopper. Until somebody can show that the items at the beginning of this message are not decanters, then I go with the view that they most likely are - particularly with the number on the base that Max commented on.

[Andy]

Good one Kev,
I dont believe in magic. I still think they are vases for decorative purposes, instinct mainly,
and i feel the necks are just a little too flared to take a stopper, (and i do have decanters with
flared rims as well )

Whatever they are, more importantly, the question remains, who made them!

Cheers,
Andy

[krsilber]

To me the one Kev shows on the right is obviously a decanter, not just because of its shape, but also because the inside of the neck is ground.  To my mind, not a very good analogy.

Are there any nicks/scratches on the inside of the neck?  In the absence of any evidence that they are decanters, I'm with Andy on this one.  They look more like vases to me, too.  For one thing, the neck is very distinct from the body, it's not flared toward the bottom.  If you tried to pour from one, it seems like the moment the liquid hit the neck it would come rushing toward the rim.  Shannon, you might try pouring from one to see how well it would work as a decanter.

Kev's right that there's not much evidence of them being vases, but I don't think there's much evidence for them being decanters, either.  The numbers on the bottom could just as easily be inventory numbers, especially since the necks are not ground, a common indication that there might be matching stopper/decanter combinations. 

"But it is much better to check out as many options as possible before making a basic statement of opinion that itself is not backed up with good evidence. ...  Until somebody can show that the items at the beginning of this message are not decanters, then I go with the view that they most likely are"

It seems to me you are committing the same mistake (if it is one) that you point to in others' comments:  stating an opinion without "good evidence" to back it up.  In the end it's all opinion; we don't know either way - so what's wrong with hazarding a guess?

[Max]

I believe that style is called shaft and globe, it's a Victorian thing, maybe dating before that, I'm not certain. 

EDIT

Andy McConnell's fabulous book The Decanter (ISBN 1 85149 428 6 - Antique Collectors Club) says that Shaft and Globe "has Roman antecedents.  The most common decanter shape, produced since c50AD"


Uhh..so that shape is a little earlier than Victorian...   

[Frank]

The smallest decanter listed in the Glass Catalogue is Moser 16520-30/10/III at 135mm 5¼" high. Liqueur decanters tend to be the smallest size, Edinburgh Crystal ones are just over 6" high and capacity is 9ozs. Claret decanters can be up to 40ozs or one quart, wine 24-30 ozs

But decanters do not (or did not) always have stoppers as in this Green & Nephew one from 1878

Image courtesy The Glass Study

[Ivo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decanter seems to miss the point. Small decanters for bitters have been around forever, even if Wikipedia says it holds at least one standard bottle of wine. Wiki says a decanter sans stopper is a carafe - but a carafe is a decanter in French which can have a stopper - or not. 

The sample Frank shows is a water decanter for the bedside, with the upside down matching tumbler not shown.

Not sure why people insist this is a "vase" - the item is unsuitable for holding flowers or even feathers.  The matching code on the bottom indicates there have been stoppers. I have yet to see 2 digit "inventory numbers", it makes no sense.

Not all stoppers have a ground seat, especially not in a vulnerable slender necked vessel where you would be more likely to use a light hollow blown conical one which either sits on the turned out rim or uses the conus.

And I entirely disagree with the statement that "in the end it is all opinion". I find it quite insulting to rate the contributions of others in this way.