Topic: Grey pigeon paperweight?

[pamela]

Bernard, would have been able to burn down your home! (some fabrics in the same angle are enough to enlight these) (Seen and smelt that many many years ago)

[inca]

OK, the fan tail is similar but does that really confirm that it's Formia? IMO no.
What about the shape of the head, how the eyes are made, beak, the pattern of the grey effect,
the texture of the grey effect!!!

Regarding the grey effect there are some reference pictures here.
 
V. Nason, bird with grey effect

Marcolin/FM Ronneby, examples of the grey effect
 
 
I'm still leaning towards V. Nason, it might be Marcolin but IMO I doubt that this is Formia.
 

[inca]

some more V. Nason with the grey effect

[TxSilver]

Bernard, I didn't access the catalog, so I am not sure what the picture of the Formia dove looked like. There are a couple of things that make me question. The eyes of your bird are deeply recessed and the forehead is high. The bill is small. Formia generally has applied eyes that are slightly recessed, smoothly molded forehead, and careful bills. Does the bird in the catalog have a head that is like yours. It may be worth my while to register to see it.

Formia makes several types of birds. Their San Marco doves have a body form that is similar to yours. However, the bill, eyes, and forehead are different. Perhaps it is one of their other doves??

[inca]

Bernard, I didn't access the catalog, so I am not sure what the picture of the Formia dove looked like.
It may be worth my while to register to see it.

You don't have to register to see the catalogue.

If you go to the page where you can browse the catalogue 'liriche'
press   >   under the picture of the catalogue (above the text: >> see whole collection liriche)
you can now browse the catalogue

If I'm not mistaken this is the bird that Bernard is referring to in the Formia catalogue, page 72.
http://www.formiaglass.it/formia/zoo/SanMarco1.pdf

seeing cat and Ingela's input I'd have no problem to define your pigeon as Formia.

What do you base this on? The grey effect?

Marcolin, V. Nason and Formia use the grey effect in their objects.
There are several different patterns of the grey effect and also the texture of the grey effect vary.

Ivo, you have no problem to define Bernard's pigeon/dove as Formia.
IMO it looks more like V. Nason or Marcolin and not Formia so I would love to hear how you came to your conclusion that this is Formia.

[TxSilver]

Thanks, Inca. I thought it may be the San Marco models because of the wings. I think San Marco is really a pigeon, because pigeons are the doves hanging out in San Marco Square. So Bernard was probably right calling it a pigeon.

Bernard, check the head of yours against the picture. The position of the head may differ, but the eyes, slope of the forehead, and bill should match. I would say that yours is not the San Marco bird. I agree with Inca about the V. Nason or Marcolin (FM-K?).

[inca]

My guess would be V. Nason, Murano.
I don't think this is Marcolin/FM Konstglas or Formia.
I haven't seen much with the grey effect from Formia, here's a a Formia cat as reference.

seeing cat and Ingela's input I'd have no problem to define your pigeon as Formia.

Ivo, I take it you were joking?   :huh:

Or are you telling us that you compared both objects and found similarities, that the cat and
the pigeon have the same type of beak, fan tail, eyes and identical grey effect!
And from that comparison there is no doubt in your mind that Bernard's pigeon is made by Formia?

I would love to know how you came to this conclusion?  

[Bernard C]

Ingela — I don't know Ivo's thought processes, but I can assure you that Ivo rarely jokes about attributions.   His reasoning may have been similar to mine.

When I look at glass, I try to visualise how it was made.   This is not easy for me, not being trained in glassmaking, but I have taken every opportunity to watch glassmakers at work.   This is the main reason for my several short "holidays" on Murano, one of which was notable as we actually failed to visit Venice — something which my long-suffering OH, Janet, has never let me forget!

So, what I see in your cat and my dove/pigeon is a deeply 16-ribbed opaque core with the ribs increasingly chopped up as you get lower, twisted and thickly cased in crystal.  There are regular bubbles at the point of every scale/feather, although your cat has additional random bubbles.   What we could then call the blank was subsequently worked up to the desired shape, and these two blanks are very similar indeed.   You will recall my words — "Am I correct in thinking that Ingela's cat and my pigeon are the same Formia range from the same gaffer, or is this a universal style that was made elsewhere?" — covering myself in the event of this intriguing and attractive style being made by others.   I thought it unlikely, as did Ivo.   ... and we both seem to have been wrong!

...   Formia generally has applied eyes that are slightly recessed   ...

Please take care with such generalisations, as it is a slightly different problem.   From the doves I have seen on browsing around the Internet, I prefer — "On translucent pieces Formia generally has applied eyes".   Even better — "Formia pieces usually have contrasting eyes".   Applied eyes are likely to be slightly recessed, cause and effect.   Punching the clear crystal casing through an opaque core is equally or even more effective — and a lot faster, taking perhaps two or three seconds, something of great significance to those paid piecework rates.   And it will affect the shape of the head.   So I don't consider this as particularly relevant to the attribution.

Has anyone any ideas on how we can reduce the three potential manufacturers down to one?   I still prefer Formia because of the cut fan tail, but it would be pleasing to have rather more evidence to upgrade the attribution from "possibly Formia".

Bernard C. 

[Ivo]

Seeing the doo my first reaction was "Marcolin" - but as Ingela was rather adamant it was not, it is not.  My second choice was Formia - and the cat closed it.  I've never seen this technique in a Nason piece, and the item seems a little simple for Nason.

Re eyes: both Formia and Marcolin used the punched eyes.

[TxSilver]

...   Formia generally has applied eyes that are slightly recessed   ...

Please take care with such generalisations, as it is a slightly different problem.
Bernard C.  

Not to worry, Bernard. I rarely generalize without a mountain of data to support what I say. Birds were a very important money maker for Formia. There were some comic ones, but most were beautifully and carefully crafted with certain characteristics. They are recognizable on sight for a person interested in Murano. Your bird did not strike me as Formia, though I realized I could be wrong. Animals can be difficult. In my statement, I was referring to the eyes being slightly recessed, instead of deeply recessed. Your bird seems to have eyes that are rather deeply recessed -- not a characteristic I associate with Formia.

The charcoal gray sommerso pieces were done by a few people. I believe it is Ingela that has some pictures of some them in her Nason folder. None of the pictures are the same as your bird, unfortunately. I had one of the gray pieces that was in a diamond quilt pattern. I found some similar birds online that had a Barovier& Toso label. If that label was correct, then BT may have also done gray pieces. It would be nice to find a bird just like yours that is signed. I am curious.