Topic: Moore classic with mouldmaker's error

[Bernard C]

Classic Edward Moore pattern of pillars and gadroons, reg. no. 80013 of September 1 1887, low unlidded sugar as illustration in Thompson p.22 top centre but without the lid or a fitting for a lid, registration mark on the inside of the gadrooned section reads:

R^D 31008

Isn't that lovely!   First time I've seen this error, and I've had this low unlidded sugar before.

If you have the corrected version, please would you check it for any sign of the correction and report back.

Thanks,

Bernard C. 

[Cathy B]

Isn't that fascinating! Presumably if it's designed to be read from the base, the numbers would have had to be punched into the mould in mirror image, which might lead to this sort of error?

[jsmeasell]

The Rd and numbers are embossed (raised from the surface), right? That means the mouldmaker erred when working on the plunger, and the Rd and numbers would need to be in correct order and in mirror image of the fashion in which they'll appear in the glass. I suspect the Rd and numbers are put in with punches rather than individually hand chipped.

Incidentally, there are some Northwood Carnival pieces in which the trademark N is backwards.

Fenton is gradually adding "USA" to its moulds as they're being used for production, and we sometimes have difficulty deciding where to put it!   

[Bernard C]

The Rd and numbers are embossed (raised from the surface), right?   ...

Yes, James, they are in relief (raised from the surface), and, Cathy, read from the inside.   They are upright, thinking of the centre of the bowl as the bottom and the rim as the top, also they follow a horizontal circle.   They were certainly punched into the plunger using a hardened tool steel set of alphanumeric punches, and, from memory, using the same set of punches as on other Moore pieces.   I've some more Moore in a box somewhere, and will unpack them today and check.

--------------------- INTERLUDE ---------------------

I've unpacked them, and have examples of 58275, 71753, 80013, 83773, 88124, 94820, 95625, and 95775, dating from October 1886 to March 1888.   All used the same set of punches.   All are upside down and inside, with the mark positioned at one end on oval pieces, at the handle end on jugs, except for:

80013 sugar — upright with the error,

80013 cream — unmarked,

94820 cream — across centre of base, upright if you have the spout up and the handle down,

95625 bowl — unmarked (the registration is for the tazza shape).

So this analysis shows that he attempted something different with the 80013 sugar and got himself into a muddle!   The unmarked cream as well as the error on the sugar suggests that this set could be a very early pressing.

--------------------- INTERLUDE ---------------------

... and, now I've unpacked all my Moore, I've discovered something else, but that will wait until I've taken photographs.  

Thanks, Cathy and James, for your interest.

Bernard C.  

ps1 — I've always thought of "embossed" in relation to hammered metal sheet, i.e. decoration which is both incuse and in relief, but checking shows that you are right, James.   Thanks for the education!

ps2 — James, were sets of punches the mouldmaker's tools or the property of the factory?   Over here I suspect that they were the mouldmaker's, as two different sets seem to have been used simultaneously at Sowerby, for instance.

ps3 — "the trademark N is backwards" — how?   They must have had punches for other, non-mouldmaking, purposes.

[Bernard C]

Classic Moore designs registered October 1886 to March 1888 — (i) 83773 sugar, (ii) 88124 cream, (iii) 80013 sugar, (iv) 80013 cream, (v) 94820 sugar, (vi) 94820 cream, (vii) 95775 celery h. 7½" 191mm, (viii) 58275 bowl d. 9" 228mm, (ix) 71753 cream, (x) 71753 sugar, (xi) 95625 tazza, (xii) 95625 style bowl.

Click above image to enlarge.

This is the 80013 sugar and cream set I acquired recently.   The sugar has the 30018 error discussed above, and the cream is unmarked.   This was all I'd noticed until I had all my Moore together in a group as in the top image.   You will see that it's not the sugar but the cream jug that looks peculiar.   It has a hand-finished spout and a plain handle, unlike all the other cream jugs.

Checking the Moore registrations listed in Thompson p.21, it looked to me as if this this 80013 pattern may have been Moore's first registered cream jug, so their rope-twist handles, with or without scroll finials, and their moulded spouts were yet to emerge.

I then turned the page — to the registration drawings for 80013.   I had difficulty believing what I was looking at!    There's the sugar, with two rope-twist handles, and the cream with a rope-twist handle with scroll finial and a moulded spout.   ... and it's not just a drawing which was never implemented — see here for a perfect match to the registration drawing of the cream jug.

This is unique in my experience.   I've never before come across a trial or test piece produced part of the way through the production of a mould, and this is a set, not just one piece.    In addition it looks as if the plunger for the trial cream jug would have had to have been replaced for the production version.   I think all the other components of the two moulds were capable of being modified.

What do you think?   Are there other explanations?

Bernard C.  

[Cathy B]

Are there other explanations?

A special commission perhaps?

[Bernard C]

Cathy — As they would have known about the extra cost of replacing the cream plunger and possibly other mould components, it must have been something rather special and important, like an exhibition where they were desperate to get all their latest designs on display for the big trade buyers.

Does anyone know of a likely event around September / October 1887?

Bernard C. 

[Frank]

None in 1877
1878    Paris, Weltausstellung. Ausstellungsraum 750,000 Quadratmeter.

[Bernard C]

Frank — Grateful thanks, but you're a decade early.   It's easily done, all those 8s and 7s, as I did myself earlier in this thread:

...   I've unpacked them, and have examples of 58275, 71753, 80013, 83773, 88124, 94820, 95625, and 95775, dating from October 1876 to March 1888.   ...

That one should, of course, read "1886".

So, do you, or anyone else, know of a likely event around September / October 1887?   Any event completed by September 1 1887 would have been too early.

Bernard C. 

[Frank]

Oops!

Only ones in 87 were Australia, which is possible as lots of UK co's and ship was 6-10 weeks
Adelaide June-December and Geelong November - Apr 88.

Er more found on-line forget about google
Adelaide, Australia, 1887-1888, Jubilee International Exhibition
London, England, 1887, American Exhibition
Manchester, England, 1887, Royal Jubilee Exhibition
Newcastle upon Tyne, England, 1887, Royal Mining, Engineering & Industrial Exhibition
Saltaire, England, 1887, Royal Yorkshire Jubilee Exhibition
Agra, India, 1887, North West Provinces Exhibition

No dates though

One more Rome, Italy, Esposizione mondiale