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Author Topic: date cane with an I in the middle?  (Read 10686 times)

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Offline Riki

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date cane with an I in the middle?
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2006, 07:20:23 PM »
Kev, My appologies for not noticing this earlier, please do what ever you wish with the pics.
I don't keep most photos  :oops:

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Offline Frank

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date cane with an I in the middle?
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2006, 08:10:04 PM »
Simone, I am a little puzzled now as at first it seemed to be suggested to be a fake and then Riki said that he thinks it might be an apprentice piece. Yet if the date cane is so different how could that be, an apprentice would surely not get the job of making something as important as a signature cane - so why would he not use the same as other makers?

Caithness bought the name in 1981, do they also make Whitefriars signatures canes and use the same techniques as Whitefriars did?

I can recall in 1989 when I bought the first batch of PY type 1 fakes, about a dozen. The quality of those was superb although they had the lower dome and base finish that became signals of the fakes apart from the dropped Y. It is intriguing that that signature cane also was two-coloured. Surely the letters/numbers are composed of solid coloured canes so it would mean a deliberate decision to use two colours. But did Whitefriars always use a single colour and did Caithness continue in the same way?

A few weeks after the first batch of PY fakes another batch turned up. This time the dealer said that he had got them from the same source as the first and that the seller had large collection and that he had seen at least a hundred in a box in the dealers car. But the quality of these seemed odd, R. B. came and had a look and the hairs on the back of his neck stood up he thought they were odd. I then got in touch with Colin Terris to see if some seconds had been sold of from the factory but he told me that everything Paul made was inaccesible to anyone while he was at Caithness and that apart from a few stones for jewellery Paul took everything with them. We also now know that Paul would smash any weights that did not reach his standard, including those of his assistants. Next photographs were sent to Paul who said "They include some canes of mine but I did not make the weights". Which caused even more confusion. Further investigation revealed that some of Paul's weights had been stolen while at Caithness but everything was recovered by the police. At this point it was clear that the weights had to be fake. It certainly took months for people to accept this as it was hard to see why anyone that had such skill would do such a thing.

From reports of collectors buying these around the country it became apparent that several hundred had been made and also that the metal used was the same as used by nearly all of the Scottish Paperweight makers. It was the Cambridge paperweight circle, before Kevin's time I think, that managed to unravel the rest of this story - a most impressive network of collectors.

So the point of repeating this... If there is an outside chance that this weight is a fake and that some distinguishing features exist then there must be more out there. Can I ask you all to check your own collections and let us know if you find more. Where and when you bought it could be helpful in putting together a history. Careful study should look for other inconsistencies, is there a UV reaction and how does that compare with the weights of Whitefriars, Caithness Whitefriars and any other paperweight producers. There is no Paul Ysart but perhaps there still exist some old Whitefriars makers that could give some input?

With the fake Ysart glassware, the quality keeps improving and apart from a couple of details that cannot be faked they could eventually be almost perfect. I think that such a situation with paperweights would be disastrous as if these prove bad and around in quantity values and confidence will be damaged. This in turn could hurt our last few remaining paperweight producers in Scotland and as some of you know I am relentless in bringing them to peoples attention.

What must not be done is to start throwing names into the hat, rumours can do more harm than good and will prevent the gathering of hard evidence. Hopefully, this weight is just an oddity, but let us be very aware that fakes have been found before and will probably be found again.

If you do come up with some hard evidence then do not post it here, please pass this on to the Cambridge Paperweight Circle or to me. You can use this thread to give your personal opinions and details of any other weights that give rise to suspicion. Better safe then sorry.

Thank you.

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Offline josordoni

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date cane with an I in the middle?
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2006, 09:32:34 PM »
Frank, what should I be looking out for when buying at auction to avoid fakes - I am a rank amateur but I like paperweights, and enjoy buying and selling them.  I don't really want to stop in fear of picking up fakes.

 :cry:
Thank you very much!

Lynne
x
Josordoni Collectables - eBay Store

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Offline Frank

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date cane with an I in the middle?
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2006, 10:10:20 PM »
I know very little about Whitefriars weights but after the tooing and froing of opinion I am hoping that those that do will deepen their analysis in this thread.

As long as you don't pay too much, getting a fake is not a bad thing and they can even appreciate. Part of the learning process with glass is through comparison of different makers work. Fakes add a dimension that can really help to focus on the different methods used by the original and the faker and through that you end up with more undestanding.

The community on these message boards have uncovered several fakes although mostly signatures. Fortunately fakes are not big business in paperweights, to emulate the quality pieces requires a highly experienced and skilled glassworker. Motivation cannot be entirely money but for sure they might not do it if they could not get more for a fake than for their own work. Other motivations can be frustration at struggling to survive (gas bills of several thousand dollars per month are the norm for a paperweight studio),  irritation at their own older work selling for more than they can sell current production, in some cases just for the challenge and in others perhaps for spite.

In the case of the PY fakes the ones that made the big money were dealers. They probably persuaded the makers to do it in the first place. Amusingly some of the PY fakes got altered a few years ago by adding facets and polishing the bases to conceal some of the give-aways - but the cane is now instantly recognisable.

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Offline Frank

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date cane with an I in the middle?
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2006, 08:46:11 AM »
It is very easy to jump to conclusions on circumstantial evidence but such conclusions can be erroneuos. Mud sticks and witch hunts only ever satisfy the hunter.

From your response, simone, it certainly sounds clear that this is a fake. The question then is where and when was it made? Presumably if it was made  pre-81 someone would have noticed sooner. Certainly they would have been trickling on to eBay soon after they were produced... so perhaps in the last year or two and thus possibly still being made. I assume one signature cane goes a long way - thousands of weights, certainly hundreds.

With the PY type 1 the best estimate was several hundred weights and in the Type 2, late 90's either the original cane was used up or it got destroyed when the police started investigating.

One trick used in the PY scam was to sell the weights outside of Scotland which ensured that due to legal differences that complaints to police had no effect on the makers as there is no appropriate crime on English law books. In Scotland there is a very specific part of Forgery law that can be applied. So for the most part origin of an individual puchase is little help. However, in the original investigation all of the dealers involved were proven to have direct contact with each other.

Interesting that you made that connection with the different colours being used in the PY and date canes. A common aspect of forgers is to include some feature that they can recognise as their own concealed signature. So all that tells you is that they follow conventional forgers psychology, I think it would be hard to state with certainty that it is the same maker of both on those grounds. If it was that means someone who had master skills in 1989, I would have thought that any master remaining active over that length of time would have received sufficient recognition to have no need to resort to forgery. You cannot discount as the motive might not be financial gain as is often the case with good forgers.

Personally, I think it would be great if the makers of any of these fake weights was to stand up and say "It was me". What would happen, people would be shocked at first, the maker or makers might get arrested but it is very unlikely that they would be imprisoned - perhaps some community service. That could only help to elevate the value of the forged weights and the forgers own work. Notoriety has its benefits. The publicity that would be aroused could have a beneficial impact on paperweight collecting as it makes more people aware of the topic and how the community of collectors polices itself through collectors organisations.

I would be interested in what the others involved in this thread think too, but please avoid any inferences to particular companies.

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Offline ALLAN

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date cane with an I in the middle?
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2006, 09:02:16 PM »
Hi,
   I thought I would just say that we (at Caithness) have used "monk" canes with dates,based on the original Whitefriars designs.These were usually used in special editions ,ie.royal events and the millenium weights.I have a load of old canes at work which pre-date my time at Caithness so I will print out a pic of the "fake" and compare it to the canes and see if I can find a match(you never know :lol: ).I can certainly guarantee that it was not made at Caithness after October 1983 , as I was in charge of  making the canes and Whitefriars weights from then.I cannot think of why anyone at Caithness would have made a fake like that as we have all the formers etc,from the original factory,including the "monk" former that they used.We also have a large number of original Whitefriar canes that someone could have copied to get a good fake.They could not use the originals as our glass was not compatible(and still isn't).So I will do a bit of detective work and see what I can find out,but I doubt if I will find anything :)
                                Allan

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Offline mjr

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date cane with an I in the middle?
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2006, 07:38:39 AM »
Here are images of three of my Whitefriars which all have white canes

http://i4.tinypic.com/10e34wo.jpg
http://i4.tinypic.com/10e36lg.jpg
http://i4.tinypic.com/10e37gy.jpg

These are of various sizes.  

As I previously suggested, Whitefriars canes from the 70s, whilst always being white and blue, can be positive and negative, and as can be seen can contain stars in the outer circle.

And here is a carpet ground with a "conventional" signature cane.  There are some very similar canes
http://i4.tinypic.com/10e3arr.jpg
Martin

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Offline KevinH

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date cane with an I in the middle?
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2006, 05:37:59 PM »
Hi folks,

I have just returned from a holiday in Poland with no paperweights in sight, but in the company of eagles, storks, cranes, large woodpeckers and so many wonderfully coloured birds that it will take a while for me to get back into the gist of these messages!

But for now, I will arrange for Riki's images to be set up in the Yobunny site (thanks for the go-ahead, Riki).

On the point of "fuzziness" vs "sharpness" of the Monk cane, I do not think this is a truly relevant factor. I have seen several genuine pre-Whitefriars signature canes that look "fuzzy" and I have an actual example of one. The inclusion of stars (and whorls) at the top of the cane was a feature of genuine pre-Cathness Monk canes.

I do agree that a multi-colour date in the cane rings warning bells as I believe that the originals were always in blue in a white background. But perhaps somebody (Martin, maybe?) can confirm this.

It may be the case that the Caithness ones are always crisp, but I have not studied these so cannot comment on that.

The topic is certainly of interest but it is unwise to try to track down a specific maker without first gathering more evidence from other examples and other sources. Although I have not yet had a chance to properly digest all that has been said in this message, I would caution against drawing any conclusions based on little actual evidence.

I have emailed a friend who knows quite a bit about Whitefriars weights and have asked if any other "dubious" examples have been seen or heard about in the past.

I will ask Frank to archive this message at a time when the comments have settled down. This way, we will not lose the information and the basis of any future enquiries will be preserved.
KevinH

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Offline RAY

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date cane with an I in the middle?
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2006, 09:33:18 PM »
found it in the book "Paperweight Signature Canes" by Andrew H Dohan


cheers Ray

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Offline Frank

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date cane with an I in the middle?
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2006, 09:46:17 PM »
No one else checked that :o It fits in with the dates Allan talked about too.

Still it is an exciting end and I am relieved that these are genuine, the John Deacons connection and the obvious rarity could make these amongst the most desirable of the Caithness Whitefriars weights. What a wonderful ending. :D  :D  :D

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