Topic: Milk Glass Doilie Plaque I.d Request

[Glen]

Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to how long the oval tray in this pattern (grape centre/openwork edge) was being made? How late do you reckon this specific oval dish (marked with the diamond lozenge) is likely to have been produced?

[Paul S.]

I should have added that looking at the archives won't remotely give the answer to that question, but it's a good question.      With all your research experience with pressed glass Glen, you must have a better idea than most of us of some general indication regarding the life span of moulds.

[Glen]

This particular piece puzzles me.  I have seen a Carnival Glass example of it and I wondered if there was any proof for its lengthy production. Fascinating!

[Paul S.]

.............and presumably the carnival example didn't have the lozenge??

[Glen]

Paul, it DOES have the lozenge. That's why this is so fascinating. It could turn the Carnival world upside down if it could be proved to have been made before 1900.

[agincourt17]

Paul, I've already put the details on the GMB RD look-up to try and clarify the situation regarding the novelty in the design.

It would also be interesting to have some idea of the range of different shapes (or even sizes) from the set.

[Paul S.]

thanks for the clarification Glen  -  I was unsure - you'll have realized by now that I know very little about carnival .          Is the occurence of lozenges on carnival material a rare thing or not uncommon?
I understand from listening to some of the pressed glass people that the re-use of older moulds is a not uncommon thing, and perhaps to be regretted - I believe that it happens more on the other side of the pond.
I seem to recall that we had a related conversation some time ago - it's a bit of a soap-box of mine - just my opinion, of course, that - as you are now suggesting - the re-use of older moulds can only harm modern research, and create confusion.            Is it at all possibly that they were throwing salts into the pots or whatever in 1876?    What is the earliest recorded date for this practise?

[Glen]

Paul, yes it is exceptionally unusual to find a lozenge on Carnival (with the exception of Australian Carnival). As to the re-use of moulds, Sowerby did quite a bit of that. Their Covered Swan Carnival butter can be found (albeit rarely) with a faint RD on the inside of the lid. The Sowerby catalogues prove the re-use of some of their old  moulds for use in Carnival Glass.

I suspect that is what happened with the Greener piece -  the mould was pulled out and re-used. But when? The Carnival example of this item is the only example currently reported, to the best of my knowledge, so there can't have been many made.

Iridescent glass was first exhibited in Europe at the Vienna Exposition of 1873 by the Lobmeyrs. In the United States iridescent glass was first exhibited in 1876 at the Centennial Exhibition in Philadelphia - by Lobmeyr. (This info is courtesy of Frank Andrews Glass Study archive).

[Paul S.]

thanks for the information Glen - very interesting and informative.

Fred - I will look at the Kew details on my next visit, and post some pix if these are available.

[Otis Orlando]

I attach photos of an opaque turquoise blue example and the trademark and lozenge from an opaque white example.  I know both the white and blue examples were marked on the flat part of the underside but can't recall if there was a second set of marks.

No offence, but steering back to the subject matter in question, I was able to retrieve an example of one of the plates you have mentioned during my searches, but there is no mention of another marking.  On the 6th picture, which only shows  2/3rds of the plate, where I was hoping a marking would be visible in the same area as mine.

Ebay Item No. 151039240214

good piece Otis - nice find.            Some moulds were in service for some considerable time, which is one of the reasons for the occasional poor legibility of lozenges and Rd. Nos. - another reason will be as Fred has pointed out that it was simply a poor pressing.
Sometimes it's possible to find pressed glass with Reg. details so poor that it makes you wonder for how many years they might have been used.
If you would like me to have a look at the original Registration details in the U.K. archives, let me know.

Thanks Paul,  I must say, the lozenge and Rd No.s emboss marks are prominently raised and clearly visible to the eye.   The photos I've taken, don't really do justice.   This would indicate to me that the mould might be an earlier piece from the original cast?   Please, don't quote me on this,  I am only summersizing from  past items posted, where markings have been poor and comments have been made.  You mentioned that Fred had pointed out about poor press marks:   

I presume that the 'd' in 'Rd' sometimes appears to be missing because of a worn or badly cut mould, and sometimes because of insufficient pressure during the actual pressing process. It's the letters and digits in the internal angles of the lozenge that are the important date indicators (the Roman numerals in the circle at the top indicating the registration Class - in this case III for glass).

This gave me reason to look at the marking on my plate again.   During my observation I have noticed that the 'R' is central within the located area and there would be no room to for the 'd'.   So I would not describe my plaque as a defect in the mould or characters/numbers missing, hence, my reason for querying that there is only a 'R' and not 'Rd' in my previous reply.

It would be a pleasure if you are able to devote your time to look up the original reg. details in the U.K.  So, in answer to your question.  Yes please!