Topic: Glass technicality - how was this bowl made? and why the 6 blob pontil mark?

[flying free]

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,54884.msg311028.html#msg311028

Knowing nothing about how glass is made apart from the very little I've gleaned and understood from my books, I'm very curious as to a) how this bowl was made. 
b) why it has a strange pontil scar or mark consisting of 6 small blobs, rather than a round polished mark or a smooth snapped off scar etc, i.e. I own a lot of glass, but none which has this type of pontil mark.

 I've looked at hundreds of images now but because people often don't put base images on I've only managed to find a few that actually show the pontil mark like this (actually all Italian)

For example, not withstanding the fact that I don't think???  the colour of my bowl is right for Steuben nor the mark on the base, those I've found on real life photos at the Steuben pattern site, made at Steuben, are different because they have a polished pontil mark and on most of them (one exception I've found being a later version with handles) the lattice is started at the foot very differently.  On those a trail has been laid around the rim of the foot and then rather than being pulled up once into a triangle shape, it is pinched and slightly pulled forming a 'raised blob' for the next layer of trailed glass to sit on.  Only then is the next layer pulled into a triangle (the exception being a later bowl featured that seems to have been done in the same way as my bowl).

Looking at a past thread featuring some pieces with this design of lattice glass, Peter shows a very old bowl and plate with a lattice design and says:
 '... In the Glass In The Rijksmuseum' catalogue they are described as 'open work mesh pattern',made of smooth threads nipped into an open work mesh. and in their day in the 18thc they were very expensive items,the open mesh work being entirely hand worked and time consuming.'

My green bowl isn't done in exactly the same way as Peter's but it must have been difficult to make, to keep the glass soft enough to work without reheating and losing the shape, and it's large at 10" diameter.

The fact that the base of my bowl reminded me of a bulls eye window pane, i.e. doesn't look as though it was blown into a mould to make the base, but looks as though it was hand-formed with the wreathing in the glass etc got me wondering about the pontil scar/mark.  Is it in fact a pontil scar with a smooth middle and nipple in the middle, or is it where a 'gadget' has held the glass for it to be worked?

So it is possible my bowl was constructed as follows (edited ):
For the base
- first blowing a large bubble,
- Attach gadget to bottom of bubble, then cutting it off at the rod, opening out the bubble at the cut off end and  flattening out the bubble into a disc shape, thereby leaving the circular wreathing and what was the end of the bubble as a smooth nipple in the centre underneath with gadget attached around it, but then leaving a cut rim. 
-  firepolish the rim of the disc whilst held on the gadget, and trail hot glass around the rim to make the foot of the sides of the basket. 
-Then using the gadget to hold the opened disc, trail hot glass around the first circle of glass and pull into triangle loops all the way round,
- Trail another flat circle of glass around the tips of the triangles and use pincers to pinch together , then pull the flat bits inbetween into triangle shapes...etc. etc. for each layer finishing with a final flat layer of trailed glass for the rim

Question 1)     Does that method make sense?
Question 2)     If this was how it was made, then might the pontil scar actually be a gadget mark rather than where it came off the blowpipe?
Question 3)     Is that method going to require slow cooling glass, or glass that remains pliable for lengthy periods in order to do all that work?

Question 4)     In which case, could that fact along with the gadget scar indicate which country? 
Question 5)     Surely that kind of work is going to mean someone with a lot of skill making the basket.

Question 6)    Would this kind of work been more prone to failure because of the fragility, length of time to make, annealing process?

Thanks for reading 
m

[Frank]

The mark is caused by a gadget instead of using a glass blob, these are usually made at the works so unusual ones could be unique to a glassmaker/factory. I am certain their is a discussion about gadgets here with lots of useful info from glassmakers.

The basket is made by trailing hot glass onto the base and subsequent rings, it would be re-heated after each layer. Lots of skill needed to do it well as it is being turned all the time and the trails are adjusted with the pucellas all the time. Final shaping as normal once completed.

[flying free]

Thank Frank - appreciated 
I'll go and look up gadgets. 
I think this one could be identified at some point as it has enough 'markers'.
m

[glassobsessed]

Quite a bit of studio glass that turns up here was made using an iron with four points, presumably as this leaves a smaller scar when removed.

John

[oldglassman]

Hi ,
           I too have seen what I believe to have been Bohemian and Czechoslovakian pieces from the 20th c that have had 4 or more mini scars,I had always assumed this was a variant punty iron scar as described above.

cheers ,
              Peter.

[Ohio]

This is how Tiffin used their gadget for jugs in the late 20's here in the states.

[flying free]

Thanks for the replies

I'm a bit confused - John, this one has 6 marks not 4 and is quite large and I would say given the size of the bowl, is the same size as a normal pontil mark. The diameter of the 'scar' is  3cm diameter or over 1 1/8th" diameter.  So it hasn't been done to leave a smaller mark I don't think?

It's left 6 blob shaped sharp pieces of glass on the surface of the base of the bowl.

If it was the blowing iron that left the mark rather than a gadget then that would affect how the bowl was constructed.   I can't think how that would have worked out in terms of constructing the bowl 

Peter thanks.   I've seen very little glass in real life by comparison, so if you have any suggestions for searching I'd be really grateful
m

[oldglassman]

Hi ,
          Hi , I think you are confusing a blowing iron with a punty rod , the base would have been blown on an iron then transferred to a punty rod for the rest of the job to be completed , I think the idea behind these multy pronged attachments might be for ease in cracking of the rod when the piece is finished  but that's just my idea  ,more smaller points to snap than 1 larger one , maybe someone else knows the real reason for them?

cheers ,
             Peter.

[flying free]

You're right Peter - I am.  Thanks.
So it's just a different kind of pontil rod, that rather than leaving a circle mark, leaves blobs of glass.
Ok, so it could have been used by any maker then.  Not specific to Venetian/Italian glass. And has been seen on Czech glass as well.
mm, that widens the net quite a lot, except that I know from months of searching,these pieces are not easy to find, whether very old or turn of the century or even more recent.
I can see this is not going to be so quick to id 
m

[oldglassman]

 Hi ,
           I thought I had something so here it is , an English Tankard with a coin ,this shows 3 sharp prongs and I think was made this way to give a clear view of the coin ,most tankards with coins at the bowl foot join pre 1800 and some after are obscured by the pontil scar which was normally left rough ,this tankard was early 19th c but I have forgotten exactly what the date on the coin was as it now has a new home .

cheers ,
               Peter.