Topic: Mystery Goblet

[nosloz]

Anybody,

Can anybody identify this goblet.
The lozenge appears, repeat, appears to read 8, 2, 4, 1 or an I.
I know this does not follow the known sequence of letters and numbers, and choose how hard I try various combinations, I just get nowhere.
Any offers - please!

NosLoz

[Paul S.]

The pattern/ design appears to be identical to the second from left goblet shown in Raymond Slack's 'English Pressed Glass - 1830 to 1900' - page 116 - black and white plate No. 84.           The caption to this one says............"Registered to James Derbyshire & Bros., 16th June 1866.

I know we've discussed the authenticity of this group previously - but I've forgotten the conclusion regarding this particular item  -  which may well agree genuinely with the text  -  but from memory I think there was something amiss with one of the pieces.

I'm sure there is something on the Board's search archive, if I knew where to look

Nice goblet by the way.

[Paul S.]

If I haven't said it before - welcome to the GMB

[Paul S.]

lozenge details for that date should read, going clockwise starting from the top (first series of diamond Registrations)  -  Q(1866)  -  16(day)  -  4 (parcel No.)  -  M (month).             So you have one out of four correct.                 Obviously something wrong somewhere - perhaps Fred has the answer.
Year codes for the entire diamond lozenge period are upper case letter, and not Nos.

[nosloz]

Hmmm,

Yeah, but 16/06/1866 should read Q 16 4 M from the top, and it does, it's also a different shape, see picture.

Got to admit the 4 at the bottom fits, but!

One curious point is that this one, like most lozenges reads "RD" in the middle, the object in question only has an "R".

Is this a clue?

NosLoz

[nosloz]

Paul,

Having asked the question, I now have both goblets together probably for the first time. The known one, Q 16 4 M, when looked at in a fresh light has the same sort of 4, the Q, could, if you did not know it, may be mistaken for an 8, the 16, if viewed upside down, does resemble the "2", and the "M" is very indistinct. It is only from having a picture of this that I know it is Q 16 4 M. Thus it may be possible that the mystery goblet has the 16 upside down, with the 1 a bit vague. Leaves the "I"/"1" to be the "M"!

Furthermore two goblets were registered on the same day, 274962 aka Q 16 4 M, and 274963.  I am suggesting that this mystery one may be 274963. And they do have an indisputable similarity. Can you or anybody else confirm this?

NosLoz

[Paul S.]

not sure that I'd agree with your 'indisputable' - to me the pattern looks quite different.         The Rd. Nos. 274962/3  -  for those who may not know  -  are from August 1873, and I'm sure now that it was a similarly related matter of confusion that caused the discussion previously.

Will need to investigate further.............    meantime, I know that Neil has information on Derbyshire goblets, so perhaps he is able to comment and help possibly.

Neil...........

[nosloz]

Hmmm,

Yeah, apologies, got excited & confused. The second picture is 198277 from James Derbyshire on 16/6/1866.

I muddled it up with 274962 by John Derbyshire.

Back to square 1.

NosLoz

[Paul S.]

assume from what you're saying now that your second, taller goblet, does have a lozenge showing data for 16.06.1866, which would seem to prove a J.D. provenance for Rd. 198277.                 
Unfortunately, this is where the confusion arises I think, because......................the goblet that Raymond Slack shows, and which agrees with your first design, is given an identical attribution IN THE BOOK............despite being, obviously, a different design.

So it would seem that the book example that matches your shorter goblet is not Rd. 198277 - although that's not to say that it isn't from J.D. - just that it seems not to be 198277  -  of course it could well be from another factory.

I seem to remember speaking to Ray some time back about this particular matter, although he's no spring chicken now and unfortunately wasn't able to recall exactly the details surrounding these goblets.

So...............anyone else have an idea for the first piece showing here.

[nosloz]

Well, well. well,

I have just been shown a goblet, exactly the same as this one, with a lozenge showing, quite clearly Q 16 4 M !

What's more, in the centre is a single "R".

So, same registration lozenge, but two different designs!

Nosloz