Topic: Thomas Webb — heat sensitive? — akin to Alexandrite?

[Bernard C]

See two images, each with click main image to enlarge feature, via http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-19883

Here you will see a ruby Thomas Webb posy with Rd 80167 engraved on the base (September 5 1887, for the petal rim crimp), with a matching rim on an epergne flute, with matching colour on a rose bowl.   All are high quality productions.

The colour is a rich reddish purple.   It is not Alexandrite as popularly defined today (are we certain how defined Alexandrite was?), but it's not far off.   Is it heat sensitive glass?   Is it a variant of Alexandrite?   If not, what is it?

More views of the rose bowl via http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-19885

Thanks for your interest.

Bernard C. 

[Paul S.]

attractive pieces Bernard.

To some extent we might all see these pinks/reds/rose/amethysts/ruby colours slightly differently  -  to me the epergne flute and rose bowl look somewhere between amethyst and mauve, perhaps, but in view of the clear body on your pieces, it's difficult to find a match with other known heat reactive pieces......... Gulliver, the Grovers etc., - it does look different from most of these other rim shades.
Heat reactive pieces seem, usually, to work their way from pale straw to the rim variations of red/deep red/deep purple/metallic fuchsia/blue (see Christine's Alexandrite and the CH example) depending on the re-striking.
Gulliver's single example of Alexandrite seems almost to be closer to Amberina, and the Grovers comment that they believe that Alexandrite was produced by T/Webb and S. & W. only. 

The only example that I can see presently that has a clear body and which might have a close match to your rim colour is the small bowl in Gulliver from S. & W.'s 'Grotesque' pattern.         Obviously the shape has nothing to do with your pieces, but the colour might have.

Is Alexandrite simply a variation of Amberina?  Heated for longer perhaps?  -  part of the definition of both Amberina and Alexandrite seems to be that a straw body is required to start with, so just possible that your pieces may not be related to heat reactive glass.

[flying free]

Bernard, is that really a matching rim on the epergne though?  It has 8 'petals' whereas the ruby vase has 7.  I'm a bit curious about these pieces and whether or not they are all Webb (having come across this issue regarding a vase with this rim on the  'Arboresque' question thread). I know the vase has an rd number on it, but does that RD  preclude any other maker from copying the rim shape?

I have a piece of Alexandrite.  I admit I know nothing about making glass but I cannot see the connection between your purple pieces and the Alexandrite piece I own.  The V& A have a piece of Alexandrite iirc, and it could be a rose bowl - I'll see if I can find it and that might match your shape.

My Webb Alexandrite piece is uranium and I think, again iirc, Webb Alexandrite was twice heated and the rim edge shows as chocolate from a certain angle.
S&W Alexandrite is made in a different way I think - is it cased rather than heated? I think it is  - better go and read up on this as I've probably remembered this all incorrectly 

I'll link it if I find it.
edit - V&A Thomas Webb Alexandrite rose bowl
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1190455/bowl-thomas-webb-sons/

p.s. - is the bottom of the rose bowl 'pleated' or kind of 'ribbed' as it curves towards the pontil mark?
m

[KevinH]

Bernard, is that really a matching rim on the epergne though?  It has 8 'petals' whereas the ruby vase has 7.

I am adding the following point while I think of it, in case Bernard does not look in for a while.

I believe the Thomas Webb Rd design 80167 was for the shape of the rim "petals", not the specific number of "petals". In Gulliver, the drawing copied from the official records for that Rd number shows the rim formation, but with ten "petals".

[flying free]

Thanks Kev .  However does this preclude anyone else from having made that shape of petal on the rims? 
Or did the RD only last for a set period of time. 

m

[flying free]

page 318 British Glass 1800-1914 Charles Hajdamach -
gives a description of how Thomas Webb Alexandrite glass is made.  It appears to me to start with an amber glass (I guess uranium amber), reheated once to get the change from amber to red and again '... finally to reheat the very top of the glass to get a beautiful violet blue.'
 
In fact on the piece I have the colour goes from amber to red to violet to blue and the very edge of the rim is chocolate.

If the epergne and rose bowl are clear glass at the bottom is it possible they were 'cased' finely with amethyst glass at the rims before being shaped?
m

[KevinH]

I am not really sure, but I read somewhere that Design Registrations were in force for 5 years (I think), with an option to renew. So, if no renewal was made then copies could be made, but would many companies want to copy an "old" design?

[flying free]

I don't really know Kev.  My 'sensible' head would think no to that question. 

I only really started to question those kind of things to be honest, when I realised that Victorian looking epergnes were still being made well into the 20th century and it occurred to me that the same glass and shapes were being made over and over again for donkey's years.  I'm always shocked by how some amazing forward looking and inventive glass was being made by some companies and yet, concurrently, other companies were still producing the same old 'best-sellers' year on year.
So for example on page 40 of CH's 20th Century British Glass there is an advert from 1921 for J.F. Bolton Bowater showing epergnes, flowers vases and baskets.  It says '... Smaller Stourbridge companies specialised in these ranges until the late 1920s'.  They all look Victoriana, with frills and crimped rims etc. including one set that has a squarish castellated rim around each piece - a rim that is very similar to a castellated rim I've seen referred to as ' a marker for Stevens and Williams'. 

Just for interest, here are some examples of Steuben 'Grotesque' - shaded from clear to another colour.  The shapes are very different to Bernard's, but the effect of the colour shading on clear is similar.  I don't know how it was achieved though.
http://aarf.com/festeuben01.htm

I also believe both Harrach and Moser made amethyst to clear shaded glass.  Again I don't know whether it was achieved through reheating or through finely casing the clear glass in amethyst.

I've attached a picture of a vase shading from uranium green to pink and with an opalescent rim.  It was heated to get the opalescent rim I think but I don't know how the green to pink was achieved.

The lampshade I've also attached was very large and incredibly heavy.  I think it was cased in pink rather than heat treated but that was just my opinion on it. 


m

[flying free]

Another example of why I queried the rim (sorry had to think back as to why I had that question in my mind) is that on page 228 of Gulliver's British Victorian Decorative glass,there is a little crackle glass salt with a very similar petalled rim.  It has 6 petals in this case.  He does not refer to it as a Webb piece.

[Lustrousstone]

That's because the lovely Mr Gulliver will not commit himself unless 100% positive. Though I suspect the salt is Webb. The shaded casing effect, as I suspect Bernard's is, can be achieved by blowing a smaller bubble into a larger bubble until it bursts to achieve a partial coating