Topic: Georgian or Edwardian cut glass goblet help please.

[brucebanner]

This is a recent purchase from ebay i'm wondering if it's dated accurate or a more modern copy.

The cuts are very sharp, it's crystal clear with no seeds and a few chips to the base rim, it's tricky to tell if the base has wear due to the sharp cuts the glass sits on. The glass is a 1/4 inch thick and still has a lovely ring to it.

A lot of the very old glass in the glass museum is crystal clear with no greyness this is where it get's so confusing.

The glass is 5 1/4 inches in height, 3 3/8th inches across the rim and 3 inches across the base.

[Lustrousstone]

I suspect the fact that it's diamond etched with an inscription you wouldn't bother faking makes it OK

[brucebanner]

It did not cross my mind at all the inscription was diamond etched, i would not have thought of that in a million years. Thank you.

[Paul S.]

Not diamond etched, but diamond scratched (or diamond engraved if you prefer)  .......   etching is reserved for the wet acid process only.

I have my reservations about this engraving, and I'm unsure that this piece is old.     The upper case 'J' for the number one is o.k. up to about c. 1780, but not in my opinion for 1802  -  and almost all engraving for the alleged date of this piece would have been produced on the wheel.
This rather minimalist engraving would not be difficult for a gifted amateur to produce, and in fact probably easier since all of the wheel equipment would not be required. 

The cutting is deep and complex for the very beginning of the C19 - were strawberry diamonds used at that time??

The shape and style of this piece make me think more of a sweetmeat rather that a drinking glass   -  the everted rim, facted knop etc.

Just my thoughts  -  so where are all the experts on early C19 glass when you need them    

[Paul S.]

I'd also meant to comment about the figure seven  .......  I was thinking that if this were Continental then would this digit have had the dash across the upright at that date??

[Lustrousstone]

The upper case 'J' for the number one is o.k. up to about c. 1780, but not in my opinion for 1802 

That's a fair assumption if the engraver wasn't born until 1780 or shortly before!!

It's really not an inscription anyone would bother to fake IMHO

[brucebanner]

Well it's a beauty regardless of age, the inscription looks very pirates of the carrabian. There are some early 18th and 17th century glasses in that museum that look very modern. I have picked up another glass that looking at this one seems to be diamond inscribed, that one i think is 1830, i'll give that a throw of the dice tommorrow see what you think.

Thanks for your help.

[Paul S.]

looking again at this glass, plus other diamond engraved tumblers/glasses from the 1780 - 1830 period, I think I stand to be corrected regarding my comments on the use of the upper case J for the numeral 1.
This correction may support Christine's comments to some extent.

The majority of glasses which carry some form of wording, plus a date, are wheel engraved and show upper case lettering.     Almost without exception the figure 1 is shown either serifed, as in the modern form, or as an upper case I.
But when it comes to diamond scratched/engraved representation of the same digit, it does appear that its form changes and it is shown frequently as an upper case J  -  the reason being, possibly, that the engraver, who may not have been professional, is simply repeating a style that they would have used in their handwriting - and the style was what we might now call copperplate.
At school I can remember writing an upper case T and F that looked archaic with rather florid intros and curly endings  -  but we did write proper in those days  -  real joined up stuff, most of the caps. had up-swept beginnings and often curly endings.

For those interested in tumblers, then John Brooks' small booklet ('Glass Tumblers 1700 - 1900') shows examples with hand engraved script showing the upper case J being used in the date, even as late as the mid 1830's, although by then it was starting to slim down.
My other source of images of tumblers is a catalogue from Delomosne & Son Ltd. (March 2008) 'Rare English Tumblers 1750 - 1830' which was produced as part of The British Antiques' Dealers Association 90th Anniversary Exhibitions.    Very worth while buying if you are interested in tumblers, although as far as I can see none of the 87 examples shown is decorated in diamond point - they appear to all be wheel engraved, which seems unusual.

I've attached a pic of another marriage tumbler of alleged early C19 provenance, but wheel engraved, showing the more usual 1 produced on the wheel  ......  but perhaps without the rustic appeal of the op's example.
It says William & Mary Birchall 1804, and the engraving is promoted from the ordinary by the quite uncommon small polished dimples midway along the strokes.
 

[Antwerp1954]

Paul

Many thanks for your book recommendation on tumblers. I have a number of tumblers/beakers (is there a difference?) and would like to know more about them. One of them is from Germany/Austria and has an inscription dated 1710.

Many thanks.

Stuart

[Paul S.]

hi Stuart

reading the books it appears that these two words have had different meanings depending which century and country you lived in  -  the Germans and Italians apparently use becker or biccheire for what we might simply call a tumbler  -  I think some of these names go back a very long way, and referred possibly to shapes that we no longer use.
Thorpe speaks a lot about beakers from historical U.K. sites - claw-beakers and cone-beakers, and Powell reproduced what he called a beer-beaker from the Woodchester site, but none of these look like our modern (post 1600 shapes), and seem to have had their origin outside the U.K.

The OED defines a tumbler as original something that had a pointed or rounded bottom such that it couldn't be put down (inverted ??) until emptied  -  but now a tapering cylindrical or barrel shaped glass cup without a handle or foo, having a heavy flat bottom.
The same source says of a beaker ...  A large drinking vessel with a wide mouth; an open cup or goblet.
Not worth getting too heavy on the meanings I don't think  -  don't they use beakers in laboratories??

According to Brooks, the French it seems don't have a specific words for either a tumbler or beaker - simply calling them verres sans pied

I don't know of any other English text books on tumblers beside the two I've already mentioned - odd pages crop up in a variety of books, but I get the impression that possibly these things don't have the same sort of following as wine glasses.

Regret I can't really help on Continental pieces  -  perhaps Peter might know more - 1710 sounds like a really early and interesting piece