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Author Topic: 19th century opalescent plate with aventurine rim, English or Murano?  (Read 2652 times)

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Offline flying free

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Re: 19th century opalescent plate with aventurine rim, English or Murano?
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2015, 01:51:16 PM »
Lovely example Ivo.  There are also a number of pieces in the book of various decors that have an aventurine rim - pages 76 and 77 and 78 good examples, all from Venice and Murano Glass Company Limited(Salviati &C)/Salviati Dott. Antonio.

Christine yes agree a big leap of faith.  I'm wondering how they were id.
I forgot to put the link -
http://www.theglassmuseum.com/sowerby.htm
and here's a picture of the same colour Caerleon Glass decor from Stevens and Williams - vase in Broadfield House museum
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_ST468/
I think there might be an error with that Sowerby identification on the article. 
Possibly also an error with the bowl with the prunts as well?
Does anyone have catalogue VIII from Sowerby dated 1880?  Are these pieces in that catalogue (including the trailed jug)
for firm identification?
John sorry to divert the thread.

Ivo,  lion's head prunts have been used on Caerleon glass from Stevens and Williams I thought (will go and check in a mo).
Are there specific style of Lion's head prunts that are identified specifically as from Venice and Murano Salviati?

John thanks for the pictures.  The aventurine rim shows up brilliantly :)
I see what you mean about the mold blown ribs across the whole piece.  I was just looking up the Cardinal's hat bowls that have the ribs but they are in the centre area only as far as I can see?



m

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Offline Ivo

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Re: 19th century opalescent plate with aventurine rim, English or Murano?
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2015, 02:21:28 PM »
Both with an aventurine rim, these would both be V&M Salviati. 

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Offline flying free

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Re: 19th century opalescent plate with aventurine rim, English or Murano?
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2015, 03:06:26 PM »
Ivo
I've found the past thread that id's these bowls as Salviati.

(for reference see thread on links below)

I may have extrapolated incorrectly from what Paul was saying in his comments on that thread here:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,57568.msg326331.html#msg326331
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,57568.msg326357.html#msg326357

but from what Paul said, it seemed to read to me that a bowl with those prunts was found in Cottle's glass book (don't know which one but will try and find it and add) and attributed to Sowerby.
quoting some of Paul's comments to show what I interpreted from:
'Ivo's comments are confirmed to some degree by one of the images in Simon Cottle's chapter on 'Art and Venetian Studio Glass' - page 75.          The illustration - page 74 - shows a similarly shaped bowl with swirl decoration and two opposing applied large prunts, which look to be similar to those on the op's bowl, but Cottle's picture is small it's not possible to be certain that the prunts are identical, but the similarity looks to be close.'
and then
'am sure that Ivo and John know more about these wares than me  -  I got carried away with finding a picture of what seemed a very similar bowl, although it looks to be possible that this piece is attributed to Sowerby.'


So is it possible that because the jug that looks like it's a Stevens and Williams Caerleon jug has lion head prunts on, it was  misidentified in that article as being made by Sowerby because a bowl with lion's head prunts is in the Cottle Sowerby book misidentified ? (possibly) as Sowerby in the book, when in fact it's Venetian Salviati?
 
I bet the lion's head prunts on the 'probably' Stevens and Williams Caerleon jug are not the same as the ones on that bowl.

There is Caerleon glass vase with lion head prunts shown in Charles Hajdamach's 20th Centur British Glass page 110.  Difficult to tell if the jug prunt is the same - however, in light of the fact that the decor is the same colour and the same decor as the vase in Broadfield House museum identified as Caerleon glass and we know that range used lion head prunts, I propose there is an error in that article and the jug is Stevens and Williams Caerleon.

As I've commented above, it appears to also have already been identified on another thread that  bowls with those lion head prunts (like the one in the article) are from Salviati on this thread
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,57568.msg326339.html#msg326339

So from the pictures of the 'Sowerby Venetian glass' in that article, that leaves the trailed turquoise jug.  For which it would be excellent to have a pattern number and firm identification.

It also leaves the opalescent glass collection from Tyne and Wear museums, which also doesn't have a source for it's identification.

m

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Offline Lustrousstone

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Re: 19th century opalescent plate with aventurine rim, English or Murano?
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2015, 03:12:43 PM »
The article in the Glass Museum identifies those items as Sowerby on the basis that they were in Sheilagh Murray's collection and she wrote the Peacock and the Lions in 1982. Cottle wrote his book in 1986.

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Offline flying free

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Re: 19th century opalescent plate with aventurine rim, English or Murano?
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2015, 03:31:38 PM »
Thanks :)

So the questions are:

1)   were they identified by her as both by Sowerby in her book?  If so what was her source?

or 2) was it an assumption they were Sowerby pieces because they were in her collection and she had written a book on Sowerby? In which case there is no source.

(remembering the 'Richardson' pieces that turned out not to be by Richardson at all)

And where does that leave the trailed jug.
I think there might be a Sowerby Venetian trailed piece identified as such in the V&A - I'm sure I saw a jug in there actually. Presumably (can be a dangerous assumption sometimes) they  have firm identification for it.

Which just leaves the opalescent pieces in the Tyne and Wear museum collection - source or provenance?
m

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Offline Lustrousstone

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Re: 19th century opalescent plate with aventurine rim, English or Murano?
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2015, 03:41:38 PM »
Haven't got Murray, so don't know.

I think the trailed jug is good for Sowerby

and who knows about the museum stuff

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Offline glassobsessed

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Re: 19th century opalescent plate with aventurine rim, English or Murano?
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2015, 08:07:35 PM »
The group in the museum photo are also photographed in Cottle, they belonged to Margaret Warner (Sowerby family), family lore has it that they were made at Sowerby in the early 1870s by Italian glass workers employed there (Cottle page 75). These wares do not seem to have been advertised anywhere but apparently Nottingham Castle Museum has many more.

Here they are again: http://www.twmuseums.org.uk/engage/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Sowerby-Glass_05_Black-4.jpg

Assuming they were made by Sowerby then they are distinct from the Sowerby Venetian wares.

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Offline flying free

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Re: 19th century opalescent plate with aventurine rim, English or Murano?
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2015, 08:40:59 PM »
Although according to this it appears identified Sowerby blown pieces could all come under the heading
Sowerby Art Glass Studio glass
http://www.twmuseums.org.uk/laing/northernspirit/sowerby-glassworks-gateshead/

with the Venetian range being the range in clear or bottle green (cf above) with the turquoise trailing on it but still originating from the Sowerby Art Glass studio?

m


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Offline glassobsessed

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Re: 19th century opalescent plate with aventurine rim, English or Murano?
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2015, 09:11:35 PM »
Indeed and Sowerby Art Glass might have sounded a little like Salviati Glass to some, coincidence...?

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: 19th century opalescent plate with aventurine rim, English or Murano?
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2015, 09:15:05 PM »
apologies if some of the following has repeated what has been said already or crossed with more recent posts - twice I've tried to post but keep getting thrown out by being pipped to the post   -  it's getting late and hope that amending isn't essential. :)

regret that my potential to help here has long since expired, and my input (quoted in part by above by m) was limited and lacked any conclusion................but I was still curious as to the origins and provenance etc. of the olive, lion-prunted bowl, in Cottle - page 74 - bottom left of the smaller picture.           So I sent an email to Tyne & Wear Museums to enquire as to its whereabouts and to ask for a bigger picture.

The lady's name now escapes me, and in the absence of a reply I deleted the email, unfortunately :-[  -  at the time she seemed keen to be helpful and promised to get back to me - but that was many months ago now, and can only assume that she failed to locate the piece.              Could always try again.

There are difficulties with attribution for this type of late C19 Venetian Renaissance revival style - Simon Cottle himself said.... "now believed to have been made by this studio" - so he seems to be acknowledging some doubts as to accuracy of information..............and the similarity to much material produced by Salviati, makes for uncertainly of origin.          Of course, it may well be that since the author's book is entitled 'Sowerby - Gateshead Glass', then we are perhaps meant to assume that all pieces shown in this author's book are from that factory, without exception.     

Cottle's  'group of opalescent free-blown glass in Venetian style, c. 1878'  -  the larger picture on page 74, is very much what you imagine to be pure Salviati, and might well be pieces made by the ex Murano employees employed by Sowerby around that time.     None of these pieces appears to show any rim colouring  -  this fact may indicate a Sowerby origin - but only guessing.
The smaller picture on page 74 (which includes the bowl with lion prunts) are pieces with pincered, trailed streaked colours, tinted and aventurine decoration, plus crimp formed rims, and appear to me to be a mixture of 'early Egyptian, Roman and Venetian glass styles'

Simon Cottle lumps all of these 'early Egyptian, Roman and Venetian revival styles' into what he calls the first of two distinct phases in the life of the Ellison Works studio - c. 1870 - 1878..............   the second phase he describes, generally, as aesthetic glass - the Clutha and Dresser forms

It may be that it's the slightly later Clutha and Dresser designs only that may correctly be called art glass, with the earlier Venetian etc. material being described as 'revival' pieces.

In addition to the original free-blown Venetian revival series, Sowerby then produced their mould-blown 'Venetian series items' c. 1878  -  recognizable by their olive and clear bodies and turquoise coloured rims  -  and if I have it right, these are called 'new style aesthetic'.

The last of Sowerby's studio production with a claim to inspiration from Venice, looks to be the white and blue opaque bodied wares c. 1880 - described as Venetian and Near Eastern forms -  in appearance more like pottery than glass.

None of which helps John remotely.......... other than to repeat that, since none of what we assume are Sowerby opalescent free-blown pieces (Cottle page 74) show aventurine or coloured rims, then Ivo's Salviati suggestion of origin would look to be more likely..............   but who knows ;) ;D

all credit for the above information etc. must go solely to....... .Simon Cottle's book  -  'Sowerby - Gateshead Glass'  -  TYNE and WEAR MUSEUMS SERVICE  -  1986.

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