Topic: Stuart crystal rd 681549 sweet dishes sweet pea? decoration.

[brucebanner]

I think this Rd reads 681549 but the 5 should read a 6 to get an accurate recorded date on great glass marks website. The decoration is worn so i'm wondering if this has been done at home or factory decorated, there were six but the other four were badly damaged, all with the same design which i think are sweet peas, i thought i would put them on here as the RD number is not on here or on the internet, unless i'm searching wrong, any thoughts?

3 1/2 inches in height, 4 1/4 inches across the rim and 2 1/2 inches across the base.

Regard Chris.

[Paul S.]

my own feeling Chris is that the five was in fact meant to be a six, and is simply a poorly formed figure - possibly applied quickly and carelessly  -  Stuart were usually accurate with the Rd. Nos.
Registration 681649 from 12th March 1921 is certainly quoted by Dodsworth as being the Registration "to the ringed bowl and is the for year 1921"  -  not presumably for the shape of this sweet dish, or the enamelled decoration.
There were three other Registrations from Stuart on the 12th March 1921 - although off hand can't remember now what they were, and within a few days they started adding more - they seem to have had quite a flurry that year.

According to Dodsworth  -  'BRITISH GLASS between the wars'  -  this small sweet dish was pattern No. 22990 and was introduced in 1925  -  I'd imagine that this little dish was decorated/etched with a variety of designs over the years.
I'm surprised that we don't have an example of 681649 on the Board's Archives  - I'd have thought that Fred would have put one on by now, it's fairly common, I thought.

Andy McConnell  -  in Miller's  -  says ............ "Each shape was Registered as it was introduced from 1921", and ultimately there were dozens of shapes.

Would agree with your thoughts about the sweet peas     ............  I know that some of the Stuart enamelling  -  spiders etc. - can make big money.

Perhaps we ought to clarify which shape it was on which Stratford Rings was originally based - maybe someone knows.

Edited to add............   just had a look at the Board's archive of Registration Nos. etc., and there is a sweet dish like yours under 681649.

However, just to confuse matters - if you have a copy of the 'Miller's 20th Century Glass' I've mentioned, there is what appears to be an identically shaped piece called a sorbet dish on page 240  -  which has been given the Registration No. 681643 - not a Reg. No. I can see in the Blue Book............   so mystified.

 

[Anne]

My guess is that the one in Miller's is a mis-read of the etched number - some of which are very fuzzy to make out, and some, like mine and the exampls Fred added to GlassGallery, are very clear and sharp...  here's my hand-painted grapefruit stamped RD 681649 Stuart.  http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-13606

According the Great-Glass listing, there were a good number of designs registered by Stuart at that time:

681268 - 70   Stuart & Sons Ltd   21-Feb-1921
681307 - 11   Stuart & Sons Ltd   22-Feb-1921
681614 - 6   Stuart & Sons Ltd   10-Mar-1921
681649 - 52   Stuart & Sons Ltd   12-Mar-1921
681850       Stuart & Sons Ltd   22-Mar-1921
682563       Stuart & Sons Ltd   29-Apr-1921
682592 - 3   Stuart & Sons Ltd   02-May-1921

[Paul S.]

thanks for the very useful summary Anne  -  originally these were probably taken from the Blue Book I'd imagine  -  would have preferred to see the third line as 681614 - 16 - shows how the possibility of confusion can creep in.
I think both Chris' dessert and these grapefruits are fairly common - it looks like the factory didn't consider these two shapes to be sufficiently different to warrant separate Rd. Nos.
Do you think the fruits on your example are supposed to be grapefruits?   perhaps they were the very first pink ones

Unfortunately, none of this tells us the original shape on which 'Stratford Rings' Registration was based  -  would have thought I might have resolved this question on one of my visits - perhaps I did and have forgotten.          But can't see the answer anywhere so will make a visit early later this week or early next.

Who knows - maybe all nineteen of your Nos. refer to various shapes of 'Stratford Rings'  -  suspect the majority do, but will look at all of them.

[Anne]

Paul, I'd not thought of what they might be to be honest - perhaps apples or cherries? The dish shape itself with its large saucer foot gives you somewhere to store the pips after you have spat 'em out!   Thanks for offering to check - this whole RD area is fascinating to me!

By the way, a quick count up tells me I have over 30 grapefruit bowls in the cupboard - perhaps it's time to rehome some of them?!!

[Paul S.]

well, I was going to say cherries, but I'm a reformed character now    -  and agree there's a limit to how much glass you can keep.
I think it's not only the question of which original shape for 'Stratford', but also which of the Nos. it was.            Hopefully, we should know by the end of the week.

[Paul S.]

details from The National Archives show that all Rd. Nos. shown in Anne's post, refer to various new shapes from Stuart and, without exception, these incorporate the factory's new decorative design which they called 'Stratford Rings'.          Most shapes appear to have been popular, with some being produced possibly until the 1970's - probably one of the longest runs for one particular design feature.       Some shapes turn up frequently but others, like the pickle, far less so.       

As can be seen, the very first shape to have Stratford Rings appears to have been a water jug under Registration 681268.       
Unfortunately, apart from one or two shapes, most of them are without their factory pattern No.                       
I'll show them here for now, but obviously they can be moved if the Mods. wish.             As always sincere thanks to staff and Trustees at The National Archives - Kew - for their help.

Just to be on the safe side, I've also looked (and photographed) Stuart's slightly earlier Registrations from 1918, 1919 and 1920 (only four in total) and can confirm that none of those is related to Stratford Rings.                There are even earlier Stuart Registrations, of course, but am certain those will be unrelated to the Rings design.

Most recent sources of post Thompson Registration Nos. have undoubtedly taken their information from the Glass Association Blue Book, so this is just by way of acknowledging the very useful work of Jim D. Edgley for his compilation of said publication, which many of us use frequently.       It may be that some of those Registrations that found their way into CLASS IV might have evaded inclusion in the Blue Book - it's some little while since we discussed this problem, and I've now forgotten if that is in fact the case.                                                I do know that CLASS IV items are certainly missing from most of the publications.              Someone might care to correct me on this.

As is typical with original drawings submitted to the Board of Trade, all these examples from Stuart carry the standard wording ...  ""The novelty claimed in the design is the shape or configuration as shown""..........    usually it's just outline shapes that are being Registered, so these are possibly a tad unusual as these incorporate the Rings as decorative feature. 
I noticed that two of the drawings  -  Rd. 681650 and 681652  -  each had the following on their reverse............. 
""The Registration of this design shall not interfere with the use by any person of the design of prior date No. 681310 (typed on 681650) - 681311 (typed on 681652) when copyright in that design has ceased.
Not sure I follow the meaning entirely - someone like to explain please.  

It consumes most of the day to put this contribution together, so trust anyone using these details will acknowledge the Glass Message Board as the source, please.   thanks.

there are nineteen pix, so will be spread over several separate posts, and there may be an interval whilst the usherette comes round with the ice cream.........

[Paul S.]

four more

[Paul S.]

some more......

[Paul S.]

some more.....