No-one likes general adverts, and ours hadn't been updated for ages, so we're having a clear-out and a change round to make the new ones useful to you. These new adverts bring in a small amount to help pay for the board and keep it free for you to use, so please do use them whenever you can, Let our links help you find great books on glass or a new piece for your collection. Thank you for supporting the Board.

Author Topic: help with ID bohemien or poss French  (Read 3129 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline flying free

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 12778
    • UK
Re: help with ID bohemien or poss French
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2016, 04:37:16 PM »
Did you see my reply earlier?
I'm sure it's right - very small pic in the book but there are definite markers on the dragon and the design of the foliage is remarkably similar.

btw the eyes on the dragon - I'm not sure they would be a marker for purely Bohemian. I think it's possible English makers used these as well. But there are other markers for the dragon i.e the tail, the shape of the head and snout etc that are remarkably like the ones in the book.  It's just a very small picture and so difficult to see detail.
However, I'm pretty sure it's right.  And Harrach used a butterfly as well.
I would say I'm 100% confident looking at the dragon and foliage.
And unless someone copied their dragon yours is pretty much the same as in the book including the position of the feet.  Yours is just shorter in the body than the pattern design suggest (pattern suggests it would curl more around the vase).
Also Harrach used the dark green as well.

m

ooh I think I've found it (would need confirmation though)

On page 297 of Harrach From Neuwelt to the Whole World
Bottom left hand picture (very small, hand-drawn and coloured picture)

There is a design of a vase that looks faaairrly similar to yours in shape (neck taller and slimmer and foot looks wider than yours) appears to be in clear glass with a green coloured neck, dragon and design on it so doesn't appear to show it as airtrap.
However, the dragon is similar and the design of the spaced out foliage is remarkably similar.  I think it's a match to yours but will need to be checked out.
It says:
'Design for vase with painted decoration (dec no. F 3116) with the motif of a Chinese dragon, probably Josef Petricek, c. 1890 (FA)'

m
'Design for a vase

Support the Glass Message Board by finding a book via book-seek.com


Offline oldman

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 10
  • I'm new, please be gentle
    • UK
Re: help with ID bohemien or poss French
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2016, 05:28:02 PM »
I shall order a copy of the book
Most appreciated

Support the Glass Message Board by finding glass through glass-seek.com


Offline AdrianW

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 60
    • Art deco
    • England
Re: help with ID bohemien or poss French
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2016, 01:18:47 AM »
I'm not disagreeing with the others, but my beginner's thoughts wonder whether another line of potential investigation could be Loetz? There's an air-diamond decor listed here called Karoatlas (assuming it's still a valid attribution?):
http://www.loetz.com/identifying-loetz-glass/early-loetz
See picture 7.18 for a clear green example.

Gold enamelling was fairly common on early Loetz, and the polished pontil would fit too. I haven't managed to find a dragon, but there are a lot of gold enamelled oriental forms and foliate scrollwork. That said, they were common themes from most manufacturers of that era ;)

That said, I am a beginner. The others are experts. YMMV ;)

Support the Glass Message Board by finding a book via book-seek.com


Offline flying free

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 12778
    • UK
Re: help with ID bohemien or poss French
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2016, 10:21:19 AM »
Fantastic find :)
Interesting comparisons to be made between what I have found in the Harrach book and this detailed and informative Loetz article then:

1) In the Loetz description made at point 7.05

'The vases 7.06-08,7.10-17 are examples of early Loetz 'Karoatlas' glass introduced in 1885 [Neuwirth] page 245: Sprechsaal 1889 S.77 A.Schmidt: 'Von der Kunstgewerbeausstellung in Muenchen 1888', with a décor made by air inclusions in the shape of diamonds similarly to the Webb and Harrach 'Mother of Pearl' décor. Vase 7.06, similar in colour to 2.01-04, has the remains of a Dek number and the unique shape of 7.07 resembles PN=85/3684 (1899).'

the author describes the Loetz as 'Karoatlas' glass and remarks with regard the diamond air decor as a comparison to other makers '...similarly to the Webb and Harrach 'Mother of Pearl' décor'.


Yet in the Harrach book page 266, fig 306, there is a diamond airtrap yellow over white vase with coralene decoration described thus:
'Vase
form: 1887, prod no.1143/9
execution: Karoatlas
h 11.5 cm
Museum of Glass, Harrachov, inv. no 4139

White opal glass with colourless overlay, with an optical checked pattern, flashed with colourless glass and shaded to topaz yellow at the top, mould blown.  Raised tiny twigs decoration of applied colourless beads. Rim matte gilded.

A unique combination of flashed optical decoration with an applied bead pattern.  This vase, which was part of the original company sample room, is an example of an almost experimental approach to finding new decorative techniques and an effort to discover new types of decoration.'



So I'm not sure why the author says the Loetz version is 'Karoatlas' but then compares it to the Harrach versions calling them 'Mother of Pearl' decor when the Harrach book calls them Karoatlas and gives a production number.


2) Loetz did use a dark green which can been seen on other examples on that page.  I'm not sure if it is a direct match for the OP's vase green.  I have not been able to find a Harrach in that dark grey green yet.( Caveat - Harrach were a huge glassworks that produced enormous amounts of glass and colours so at the moment I would think the colour would not be a deal breaker if an example could not be found?)


3) The design of the dragon and foliage in the Harrach book page 297 is remarkably similar to the OP's vase.  But there are differences. However the similarities in the dragon are so remarkable, and the layout of the foliage decoration around the vase also, that I think it is entirely possible it was taken from that design...

... and actually, in the text of the vase plate 346 (an engraved vase with a dragon on), which is shown in photograph above the watercolour design for the enamelled vase similar to the OP's, it has the following remark in the body of text:
'The dragon figure rendered in high relief engraving compositionally replaces the motif of a dragon with a scaled body documented in several designs for painted vases , which can be attributed with some certainty to Josef Petricek.  The original template was probably a dragon from a Chinese silk pattern from the period of the Qing dynasty, published in RACINET 1872, II Livraison, tab. XIII.'

So from that paragraph it could be deduced that there were a number of vases with enamelled dragons, therefore the fact that the design of OP's vase is not a direct match but has remarkable similarities would also not be a deal breaker.

It would be good to match the colour and the shape of the vase to a Harrach piece as a final confirmation or not. 
If I have time I'll have a look around.

m

Support the Glass Message Board by finding glass through glass-seek.com


Offline oldman

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 10
  • I'm new, please be gentle
    • UK
Re: help with ID bohemien or poss French
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2016, 10:37:28 AM »
Flying free
Thank you for your hard work
I'm not sure if your allowed to reproduce an image from a book on a BB? If not?
could you send me a photo from the Harrach book?? to darrenroad AT live DOT co DOT uk
All the best

[Mod: email address modified to thwart spam harvesters. Best not to post proper email addresses in posts - instead make sure your Profile is set to "Allow users to email me" and then ask folk to use the email icon below your usrename.]

Support the Glass Message Board by finding a book via book-seek.com


Offline flying free

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 12778
    • UK
Re: help with ID bohemien or poss French
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2016, 10:42:51 AM »
I cannot photograph the watercolour design for copyright reasons, but if you send some good photographs including clear side on profile picture (this is important as it shows the outline shape of the vase not distorted by close up photographs etc), and against a white background so the detail of the vase can be seen,  to Harrach, then they may be able to give you a confirmation and design /production number for your vase.
If they do, it would be much appreciated if you posted that here as a closure for this topic.

Many thanks
m

Support the Glass Message Board by finding glass through glass-seek.com


Offline oldman

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 10
  • I'm new, please be gentle
    • UK
Re: help with ID bohemien or poss French
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2016, 11:23:56 AM »
Good idea! I didnt even know they were still in production
Email sent
If i get a reply i will let you know
D

Support the Glass Message Board by finding a book via book-seek.com


Offline KevinH

  • Global Moderator
  • Members
  • *
  • Posts: 6545
    • England
Re: help with ID bohemien or poss French
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2016, 04:09:13 PM »
Hi oldman,

Please see the "Mod" note I have added to your Reply #14 above.
KevinH

Support the Glass Message Board by finding glass through glass-seek.com


Offline oldman

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 10
  • I'm new, please be gentle
    • UK
Re: help with ID bohemien or poss French
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2016, 04:22:50 PM »
OK

Support the Glass Message Board by finding a book via book-seek.com


Offline AdrianW

  • Members
  • **
  • Posts: 60
    • Art deco
    • England
Re: help with ID bohemien or poss French
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2016, 09:43:35 PM »
m, it'll be interesting to see what Harrach say!

Support the Glass Message Board by finding glass through glass-seek.com


 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk
Visit the Glass Encyclopedia
link to glass encyclopedia
Visit the Online Glass Museum
link to glass museum


This website is provided by Angela Bowey, PO Box 113, Paihia 0247, New Zealand