Topic: Help to ID cut glass claret jug

[mhgcgolfclub]

Help please to Id this cut glass claret jug complete with its original matching stopper which is hollow.

I have not been able to find another similar one. Not 100% sure if hand or machined cut.
Date a wild guess 1920's/30's.

Height 13.25" and weighs 1286gm.

Thanks Roy

[Paul S.]

nice piece Roy.              I think it was always a little man sitting in front of a machine with grinding wheel  -  I don't think a machine capable of cutting on its own was ever invented for practical purposes.                  Regret I've not a clue as to origin, though this long whispish and spindly ferny thingy looks to give a nod to some of Iren Stevens Webb Corbett 'wheat ear' design - also to Kny's 'Ellesmere' for Stuart and their 'Woodchester'  -  not that it's any of those - just a similarity with the ferny thing.             The Stuart designs were late 1930s and the W/Corbett 1950s, I think.

Just my opinion, but it doesn't look to be the period you've mentioned - probably earlier I'd suggest, and not necessarily British, of course.
You say matching stopper  -  is that because you have identical Nos. on the neck and stopper?   Does the script look Continental at all.             
It's attractive - I like the saw tooth cutting around the rim.

I will have a look in Andy McConnell's book, but doubt that an exact match will be found, unfortunately.

P.S.  how sharp is the cutting?

[mhgcgolfclub]

Thanks Paul for looking. Maybe I should have stayed with my first thought of early 1900's.

When I said matching stopper that was only because of the same matching pattern on the stopper as the jug rather than matching numbers.

Thanks Roy

[Paul S.]

My opinion Roy remains that this could well be earlier than you'd suggested originally, but like all these things copying of designs was prolific and any given appearance can often be popular for a very long time, so difficult to be precise when dating.
The impression I've had - and the original idea came from someone other than me - is that matching Nos. are almost invariably a C20 feature.

I've no more thoughts on this one really other than the suggestion that hollow stoppers may imply less than top quality  -  and another thought is that wide, shallow, polished depressions under bottoms was a feature of first third of the C18 - but again doubtless not a hard and fast rule.

Think you're going to have to live with not knowing on this one

[brucebanner]

Who said matching number are 20th century?.

[Paul S.]

no idea - long time ago ...............  but it's true that invariably they are found on C20 bottles - not exclusively, but most of the time.

If you have a bottle Chris that you can prove was made - let's day prior to 1880 ish - and has matching Nos., it will be interesting to see.

The problem is, again, the copying  ................  in the late C19 and then in the early C20, there was much copying of Georgian/early Victorian patterns/designs, and most of these were quality pieces and would probably been provided with Nos., but they weren't genuinely early bottles.
But as always I'm ready to be proven wrong.

[brucebanner]

Seems a big general thing to say Paul, i have a big collection of decanters but they have been packed away due to space i'm pretty sure a lot are Victorian and a lot earlier with numbers, it would make good sense when making sets of four or if you have ten on your work bench getting ready for sale so no mix up is made, plus these numbers do not make sense some are 31, 201 etc not 1,2,3,4.

I would ask Andy McConnell but he charges. (it does go to charity though)

[Paul S.]

I did look in his book - half wondered if I'd seen the comment there, but couldn't see it at a quick look  -  have to say I didn't know he charged for information - perhaps that's the reason for his absence here, though good to know funds go to worthy casuses.
Twenty odd years ago whilst in a north Wales cafe/antiques emporium, I was standing near an older guy who was looking at what appeared to be an early C19 Irish decanter, and as I passed I rememinded him to check for matching numbers  -  to which he replied caustically that those old workers just grabbed the nearest stopper that fitted and didn't bother with numbers.              So I felt admonished and left quietly as he seemed to be an expert  -  but that's to over simplify the process of course because as we know their method, so I understand, was to chuck the bottle on a lathe and as it spun use grit/polish etc. to make the stopper a matching fit.           I always thought it sounded very dangerous.

I don't specialize in C19 bottles - few here do, but perhaps they can comment  -  it's just that we all know C20 quality examples are mostly numbered whereas I'd not seen this feature on earlier bottles.

As to actual numbers  -  I've seen them up to forty something and many with lower value digits - though not sure quite what dictates these numbers, but suppose that if you've a busy day then such higher digits would occur naturally.              Sometimes the face of the script can indicate late C19 - early C20, having rather thick and slightly copperplate outline.

I don't know whether Peter (oldglassman) has any bottles from 1800 to 1840, for example, that might show matching Nos.