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Author Topic: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849  (Read 9907 times)

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Offline flying free

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #260 on: July 18, 2018, 02:17:07 PM »
I lost this link a while ago and had wanted to post it on this thread.
This is a giant (3ft or so?) pair of silvered vases in The Šumava Museum in Czech Republic:

https://klatovsky.denik.cz/zpravy_region/muzeum-vystavuje-nejluxusnejsi-vazy20120121.html

Photo caption
'Nejluxusnější vázy ze stříbřeného skla v Evropě, které jsou vystaveny v Muzeu Šumavy v Sušici.'

Offline Carolyn Preston

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #261 on: July 18, 2018, 11:50:59 PM »
Okay, I have to admit that my Czech or my Slovak or my whatever is not very good. And I have totally lost the plot here after 20 odd pages. But looking at those vases, is the glass clear, and then silvered and then etched or is it ct away to the silver or....

Carolyn

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #262 on: July 19, 2018, 12:15:26 AM »
As far as I know,  they are 'blown as double walled' glass, silvered with a solution poured inside between the two walls and then etched and engraved on the outside wall.
I have three pieces - small - one is a goblet,two are salts (one of which has an impressed mark on the seal in the base).


So they are made as double walled glass with a hole in the base where the silver solution (however it was made - see this thread for some various methods of how it was done) was poured inside from the base, to line the interior sides of the two walls.  Then, when it was dry I guess, the hole was sealed.  In the case of mine with some form of metallic seal which may be lead (I do not know and have not tested mine).

m




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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #263 on: October 22, 2018, 11:13:32 PM »
In reply 207 I asked:

Topic:  What happened to Frederick Hale Thomson?

1) On the 23rd June 1853 Frederick Hale Thomson filed for Bankruptcy.

2) I have also added in this post - his death notice which has some detail about him.

It's mainly about his his surgeon year but  refers to his glass company as the 'Glass-Silvering Company' and calls it a 'speculation'.
It links his death to this venture.


1) Bankruptcy notice in the Press gazette:
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/21455/page/1900/data.pdf


This led to the following posts, one about his death (reply#198)
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,65670.msg368239.html#msg368239

And the other in memorium which talks about the failure of his business and how it affected him(reply#197)
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,65670.msg368235.html#msg368235



So he may have still been making silvered glass items (I'm thinking more finger plates, plates for boxes, smaller more mass produced items possibly?) after September 1851 when the company (Thomson, Varnish and Cookney) was disbanded.



2) Death notice in the Lancet:
Click here to view




m

I don't know if I mentioned this before but in the Mechanics Magazine Saturday September 27 1851 (see page 241 of link for cover and date), on page 259 at the bottom right hand side,it says under the heading 'Weekly List of New English Patents' - 'Frederick Hale Thompson of Berner's-street, Middlesex, gentleman, and George Foord,of Wardour-street,in the same county, chemist, for improvements in bending and annealing glass.'

So, Frederick Hale Thompson was still experimenting with glass ideas on 27 September 1851 with a chemist called George Foord.

LINK


That patent number found in this link on page 325 was Patent number 13751  registered to Frederick Hale Thompson and George Foord.

LINK

Kev,sorry!  I've forgotten again how to shorten the links.  Apologies.  Mod: Link shortened for you :)

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #264 on: October 23, 2018, 12:28:38 AM »
Topic:  What happened to Frederick Hale Thomson?

I think that this link shows that according to the National Archives, Hale Thompson's  'correspondence and papers including notebooks of chemical experiments' and dating from 1834-1854  are/were held under item number 6200 by the ' Surrey History Centre':

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/N13921793


That appears to be in Woking from this info:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/a/A13531418


Surrey History Centre Browse repositories
130 Goldsworth Road
Woking
England
GU21 6ND

Telephone:

01483 518 737

Fax:

01483 518 738

Email:

shs@surreycc.gov.uk

Website:

Visit website

m

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #265 on: October 23, 2018, 12:49:05 AM »
Here is a description of that patent given to Hale Thompson and George Foord:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=qss-AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA368&dq=george+foord+glass+patent&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiUrNDlqpveAhVKDMAKHaegDLcQ6AEIMTAC#v=onepage&q=george%20foord%20glass%20patent&f=false

Page 367

Basically to make reflectors and other items using molds?

m

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #266 on: October 24, 2018, 08:31:15 AM »
Thank you Kev  :)

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #267 on: July 08, 2019, 02:00:02 PM »
ooookkk.  Once more.

Topic: Any evidence of Whitefriars making this Varnish double walled glass.

1) I am not sure if I added this information anywhere else in the thread but there has been ongoing discussion about whether or not J. Powell & Sons (Whitefriars) made Varnish glass.

I've been waiting to see if any of the museums or anyone in fact, can enlighten further on why this is often mentioned in their collection next to maker.
So far no more information added though.



2) I've gone back to Cyril Manley's book with a fresh eye (Manley, Decorative Victorian Glass, New Edition 1988). 
I previously started another discussion on a separate thread on the GMB, on how these double walled glasses were made, given Manley's description of the making, here:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,65710.msg367480.html#msg367480

What I didn't do was type out all the information that Manley gave in the book on the subject of J. Powell & Sons possibly making these.




3) On page 45 he talks about a discussion he had with Mr W. J. Wilson (Managing Director and Chief Designer) and Mr Tom Hill (Master Glass Blower) of Whitefriars.
Manley says:
'I believe we managed to clear up an uncertainty about the London glassware (imho he makes an assumption it was made in London ) made for Varnish & Co., when the three of us discussed it's manufacture.  The glass ware made for Varnish & Co. is shown and described on pages 98 and 99 .  This type of glass was acclaimed in Art Journals when registered in 1849, and when exhibited in the Great Exhibition of 1851, it was copied in Germany and America, yet by 1852 it's manufacture had ceased. Why? (A misleading date as we know production was finished much earlier than this but at least he acknowledges that there was no further manufacture by 1852.  Manley shows 4 marked pieces on page 98, two of which are stemmed goblets.)

The general opinion was that it was made at J. Powell & Sons (Whitefriars). (note he says 'The general opinion', so he too did not have concrete evidence for this comment and goes on to say that).  I think so too, but there seemed little substantive evidence.  I have never liked guesswork, so the obvious move was to go to Whitefriars where Mr Wilson checked their records and Tom Hill listened to my surmises.  Mr Wilson's search was abortive, he could not find any evidence of his firm making any of this glassware, but Tom Hill came up with the answer to what I believe is the most intriguing question - why had the glass been made for so short a period of time?' 
He then goes on to talk about Tom Hill's description of how the double walled glasses are made. That description Manley gave in the book  included a '...suck as soon as the blowing operation was completed.'.

Manley  goes on to say:
'After the demonstrations, he suggested why the production of this type of glass was of such short duration.  The action of sucking hardened the blower's lungs, because the heat from the article entered the lungs.  He remarked that only a fool would make more than one!'


Conclusion:

So basically, Manley went to Whitefriars and spoke to Tom Hill and W. J. Wilson.  At which point Mr Wilson checked  Whitefriars own records but could find no evidence of them making the double walled Varnish glasses.

And I don't find Tom Hill's explanation of why they stopped making them after a couple of years plausible or that it can be held as evidence that Whitefriars (J. Powell & Sons) made these goblets and glass items for Varnish.

I don't think there is any evidence that J. Powell & Sons made the glasses for Varnish.




Question:

I read that those with the Varnish or Hale Thompson plug are heavier than for example my little Bohemian silvered pieces.  That there is a noticeable difference in weight between similar sized pieces - or at least that is how I read the information. 
This could mean they were made in different countries. 

Or could it mean that the Varnish/Hale Thompson ones were made using heavier glass by say, Bohemian makers perhaps at one particular manufacturer, but then other Bohemian manufacturers developed a more efficient method of making them from lighter glass? There are lots of Bohemian pieces around.  They were made for a long period. If I recall correctly, it is also probable Hale Thompson was silvering previously prepared Bohemian vases and then lining them on the inside once silvered (example at V&A and I thought another example was a lidded goblet?)
m

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #268 on: July 08, 2019, 03:02:53 PM »
Caveat - obviously James Powell & Sons were making something for Hale Thompson because he talks about going up and supervising what work they were doing for them.  But there is no evidence that it was goblets or other items other than the inkwell previously discussed.

Previous relevant discussion on the James Powell question and the Bohemian pieces that were silvered here:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,65670.msg368330.html#msg368330

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Re: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
« Reply #269 on: July 08, 2019, 03:32:27 PM »
Regarding my question in reply no

Conclusion:

So basically, Manley went to Whitefriars and spoke to Tom Hill and W. J. Wilson.  At which point Mr Wilson checked  Whitefriars own records but could find no evidence of them making the double walled Varnish glasses.

And I don't find Tom Hill's explanation of why they stopped making them after a couple of years plausible or that it can be held as evidence that Whitefriars (J. Powell & Sons) made these goblets and glass items for Varnish.

I don't think there is any evidence that J. Powell & Sons made the glasses for Varnish.




Question:

I read that those with the Varnish or Hale Thompson plug are heavier than for example my little Bohemian silvered pieces.  That there is a noticeable difference in weight between similar sized pieces - or at least that is how I read the information. 
This could mean they were made in different countries. 

Or could it mean that the Varnish/Hale Thompson ones were made using heavier glass by say, Bohemian makers perhaps at one particular manufacturer, but then other Bohemian manufacturers developed a more efficient method of making them from lighter glass? There are lots of Bohemian pieces around.  They were made for a long period. If I recall correctly, it is also probable Hale Thompson was silvering previously prepared Bohemian vases and then lining them on the inside once silvered (example at V&A and I thought another example was a lidded goblet?)
m


It seems from this information from Sothebys, that you might confuse lead glass and glass not containing lead if you just used weight to judge this information by perhaps?
See post here:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,65670.msg368256.html#msg368256

where Sothebys says in their information on that lidded goblet (exhibited in the Wallace Collection):

'When this example was exhibited in 2003, it was suggested that the glass may have been made by James Powell and Sons, Whitefriars Glasshouse in London and engraved by a Bohemian artist working in London. However, as the glass appears not to contain lead-oxide it is therefore more likely to have been imported from Bohemia.'


So ...  could it be that although observations have been made on the weight of the silvered glasses with Varnish plugs v the lighter weight of Bohemian silvered glass, weight might not indicate that the Varnish plug silvered pieces were made in the UK?   


 

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