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Author Topic: 5-spout vase ID (tentative) = Gordiola, Spain  (Read 7733 times)

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Offline TxSilver

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5-spout vase ID (tentative) = Gordiola, Spain
« on: July 28, 2007, 09:01:28 PM »
I bought a vase recently. It looks a lot like Zecchin's 5-spout vase, but there are differences. The vase is only 5" tall, instead of 6". The neck is ribbed, instead of smooth. The side spouts start higher on the vase and are smaller than the Zecchin vase. The insides of the side spouts are rough, instead of polished. Do you think this is a copy or is there another company that did a similar type piece. I saw a blue vase like this one that was being sold as Zecchin, but it may have just been wishful thinking. I hope someone know something about the vase.
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-8053
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-8054

Anita
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Offline Laura Friedman

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Re: 5-spout vase
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2007, 05:25:13 PM »
Because of the time they were made, I would think that a genuine Zecchin vase would be thin and light. Most of the early Murano glass I've had is almost impossibly lightweight (with the exception of pulegosos, which are like rocks).  The vase pictured looks too thick to be 1920s Murano production. I'd guess that other companies copied the design, and possibly still make things like it today.

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Offline TxSilver

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Re: 5-spout vase
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2007, 10:43:23 PM »
You are right that the glass is thicker than one would expect for a Zecchin, Laura. It is definitely not the Zecchin 5-spout that we see in the books. The glass has greater clarity than I've seen for Chinese pieces. I don't know who did the piece, but hoped someone else would know who might have done it.

Anita
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Offline Springhead

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Re: 5-spout vase
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2008, 07:47:11 PM »
Talk about over analyzing something... heh...

yes there lots of reproductions and similar items made by different companies... but...

if it quacks like a duck

http://www.von-zezschwitz.de/detail.php?id=19&onlinecatalog=1&chapter=21&objectid=7544&ref=%2Fonlinecatalog.php%3Fid%3D19%26chapter%3D21

http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-8053

usually it is a duck

TxSilver... if you can't see how much hand work is involved in making a vase like this as opposed to a piece of chinese mass produced glass... something is wrong... perhaps a new hobby... heh...

no offense intended

by the way... the blue one you saw... if it was on eBay it was probably the one I sold. I didn't get enough money for it and that is one of the reasons I stopped selling on eBay.

Why would you feel inside the spouts?

heh...


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Offline svazzo

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Re: 5-spout vase
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2008, 08:36:29 PM »
Springhead - Please try to keep the sarcastic comments down. Maybe its your humor, I dont know, but the way they sound to the people you are directing them to is more than rude, actually insulting. We are all happy to get new members here, but know that constant digs at people arent really tolerated. You can make posts and reply, but do check yourself before saying something that could hurt a member of the board. This goes to everyone.

back to topic...

Many classic forms have been reproduced over and over, so I don't think we can over analyze enough to get to the truth... There are way to many of this pieces showing up that I do think they were reproduced or are still being produced.

Anyway... I also have 1 of this vases. It is fairly lightweight (not paper thin), but didn't think it was an original because the spouts have been cut rather roughly and then the rigaree applied to them. Does anyone know if the originals were finely pilished or smoothed out?

I also recently went to an antiques market and saw the same vase, only in bright blue and 2 times as heavy as mine, so I do agree with Laura that weight is a good issue to bring up too. The only way to put this to rest would be with 1 person having this piece with a label, or signed and that can come here and tell us exactly what it feels like and how its finished. Maybe what colors were made, etc.

Javier
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Offline TxSilver

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Re: 5-spout vase
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2008, 09:05:37 PM »
Springhead, the blue one I saw on eBay is like my vase in having the ribs running onto the neck. Yours looks different. Since I started this thread a while back, I have seen other 5-spout vases, some that looked Zecchin, others that didn't. I believe the take-home message is to alert people to check the appearance, including color as Svazzo mentioned, and dimensions of the Zecchin vases before paying a Venini price for it.

Svazzo, mine is still setting on my shelf, too. I thought about selling it as a reproduction, but I didn't want to see it being resold as something it wasn't. So, it is on my mistake shelf (unfortunately, one of the most crowded shelves in the house).

Now for the lookin' and quackin' part... You are right about that, Springhead. The vase didn't look like Zecchin or quack like Zecchin, so it most likely wasn't Zecchin. Zecchin was a bit of a glass purist, so I would predict that the necks of his vases were polished. It would be great if my modest vase did turn out to be Zecchin, but I don't think that will happen.

Anita

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Offline Springhead

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Re: 5-spout vase
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2008, 09:42:49 PM »
Does anybody have the book Murano Magic? I have seen this vase somewhere and I think it was attributed to Barovier... I could be way wrong but I think it was in that book. The colors look right for soffiati by Cappellin, Venini on the ones I've seen... only amber and blue so far. The bright blue one Javier...I would be suspicious of... being 1930's Cappellin anyway.

I sometimes try to imagine the work involved in making something when I evaluate it. I have a feeling it is not easy to apply spouts like this as most of that type of work is seen in classic period 16-17th century Murano glass.

Think about it... how many spouted vessels do you see... If it was easy the place would be flooded with Murano glass coffee and tea pots... heh...

Now 17c coffee pots and watering jugs as well as oil lamps you do see (in books mostly heh...).

I like these vases and I am tending towards thinking some if not all were made by Barovier... in spite of what I said about the colors... Maybe the attribution to Cappellin is just wrong. They don't stylistically fit in with the Soffiati (sp) vessels I have seen.

Side Note: Anita... I don't know where you get the idea that the insides of spouts are polished. Do you mean "fire polished" or polished somehow with abrasives?

Additional Side Note... You can usually tell by looking at the ring of wear on the bottom with magnification if something was made in the thirties or made in the fifties or later. Twenty more years of scratches... heh... Take the weight into consideration when doing so.



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Offline svazzo

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Re: 5-spout vase
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2008, 09:56:35 PM »
I was the 1 that mentioned polished, and by that I meant refined (fire polished as you would say).
In my vase the spouts are rough cut.

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Offline langhaugh

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Re: 5-spout vase
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2008, 08:20:31 AM »
The similar piece is indeed pictured in Murano Magic, where it is called a "four-handled pitcher" designed by Zecchin for VSM Cappellin Venini. And, yes, it is different from Anita's piece. The spouts in Murano Magic seem larger diameter, set lower on the body of the piece, have no ribbing on the neck, the ends of the spouts/handles seem to be smooth (refined), and there are a few bubbles in the glass. In fact, many of the differences that Anita pointed out in the original post. A sufficient number of differences to suggest that it does seem as if Anita's piece is a copy, albeit a respectful (if imitation is a higher form of flattery) and fairly well made one.

But that's where we started out, so I'm sorry for going back to the beginning. I'm still interested in finding out who made the piece and discussing what the artistic, technical, and monetary values of such a piece might be. It's fascinating to me to hear Javier and Anita think it out. Thanks.

David
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Offline KevinH

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Re: 5-spout vase
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2008, 09:04:58 PM »
The essential points relating to the details of the "5-spout vases" in this discussion made me think. I have an amberina version of this design, which I bought, when I first started getting into coloured glass, as an example of interesting form and colouring. It reminded of the very old Tulip Vases, which were often pottery etc. rather than glass. As with so many of my "old" coloured glass items, I had never found a convincing attribution for this one.

And then this message happened.

Mine is not of the best quality, having what I call a "not-too-tidy" foot, an unfinished pontil area, several small bubbles especially in the "spouts", some sharp edges and some other roughness. The rigaree around all the openings is applied and not formed out of the main body or spout. This sounds to be a method of making similar to Javier's example - and maybe that is the usual way of working a rigaree. The ends of the spouts (and their rigaree) are each squashed in their own individual way - none are round. For the top rim, where the rigaree is applied, there is a definte internal ridge in parts but it is not noticeable to the touch around all of the inner rim.

I believe that touch is essential when examing or analysing items as it can reveal so much more than just a visual appraisal. By feeling (as far as I could) inside the spout openings, I was able to discover additional roughness, sharp edges and a couple of small burst air bubbles at the surface. This added extra information to what I already saw as "less than perfect" working of various parts. With all the information I was able to make a considered decision on whether to buy it and whether to discuss a lower price with the seller.

Here are a few pics of mine - which I think may well not be a Murano item - but??

Full view ... flash photo, shows the amberina shading and also highlights some of the lack of neatness in parts. The dark splodges to the rear of the neck portion are simply magnified areas of accumulated dirt behind the ridges where the spouts are attached.

The not-too-well formed foot - flash photo. This is a cropped image which allows the shape of the foot to be seen. It seems to have been formed by pressing a tool into the edge at more-or-less regular intervals. Note also that "age wear" is visible in parts but in fact there is not as much as I would expect for something with a lot of age. (But, of course, an item of any age may not always have been subject to regular handling or movement across a surface, so "little wear" can not be taken alone when assessing the age.)

One of the spouts - no flash. Without flash, the inner surface of the spout is clearly seen to have substantial roughness. It also highlights well the form of the rigaree, which is not the neatest I have ever seen!

The upper half - flash photo. This shows (or is inteded to show) the ribbing in the neck and shoudler of the vase. In some lighting, the ribbing is virtually invisible. It is most obvious on the inner surface when felt with the fingers - the outside is almost smooth.

As I say, I am not suggesting this is Murano but it may be useful for comparsion to other examples of this style of vase and perhaps it could help in deciding whether another is, or is not, Murano?

Edited to add ...
Sorry, forgot to include dimensions. It's 15.5cm (6 1/8 inch) high, 16.5cm (6 1/2 inch) from centres of opposite spouts, 7.5cm (3 inch) outer diameter of rigaree at rim and more-or-less 10cm (4 inch) diameter of foot, which is aprrox 1cm (3/8 inch) thick.
KevinH

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