Topic: A Bacchus find (possibly)

[alexander]

Hi, just wanted to share pics and some info on this weight I found on eBay.

Bought it from Cambridge,UK.

It's a huge weight, 4"2/8 wide, 2"5 high, weighs approx 1.5 Kg. (I know, mixing imperial and metric  :chky:)
Excellent condition, it hasn't been reground (top has some small un-evenness from shaping),
the base has age wear that appears authentic.
It has a broken off, indented, pontil with the canes drawn towards the centre leaving a porthole (as Hall so aptly puts it).
The glass is very clear, no tint, no seeds or bubbles (apart from bubbles around canes).

It's got a low dome, with the canes set close to the bottom.
The colors are typical Old English, subdued, main color is white with blue and red. 

I sorta hoped it could be Bacchus when I bid on it, but couldn't really be sure, there aren't many online 'bacchi'
to compare with. About a week ago I got Robert Hall's Old English Paperweights, lo and behold,
on page 27 (with torsade) I found a Bacchus weight with three canes matching 

While Hall has the p. 27 weight firmly as Bacchus (ie not in the unidentified section)
he has a little caveat in the text  that he hadn't matched up the crosses to other B. crosses.
This caused some initial concern, he has however a weight in the unidentified section (page 161, Closepack)
which he states could be Bacchus, this weight has a cane match (the red/white cross inside white cog)
to both the p. 27 weight (altho different color defining cross), my weight. The p. 161 weight also
matches several other B. weights (the pink/white and blue/white 'starfish' type canes).

So I've landed on : quite possibly Bacchus, hold champagne until verified 
Even if it's not it's a very, very nice weight.

Any input, thoughts, muchly appreciated.

Apologies for poor pics.

Thanks

[cfosterk]

It's gorgeous!!!

Best bet would be to get someone like Anne Anderson, Bill Volkman, Colin McCallien or Karen/Paul Dunlop to give you a view.

I'll looks like a Bacchus piece but either way it's a great paperweight!!!

[tropdevin]

Hi

It is a nice weight, but I am pretty sure it is not a Bacchus.  I know some canes may match weights that Bob attributes to Bacchus  or ?later Bacchus or ?early Bacchus, but Bob identifies a few too many weights as Bacchus in his book (and he admits it in discussion).  He wrote the book some ten years ago, and we now know and understand more about Old English weights (though there are still many puzzles). The weight with the torsade on page 27 of his book is one that is incorrectly attributed as a Bacchus weight.

The canes in your weights are very similar in design to the ones I have described in various articles as OE1 Group weights.  There is a short article with images on my website titled "Old English paperweights - 2 new groups" - see http://www.pwts.co.uk/ .  Also there is a fuller article in the PCC Newsletter in 2005, and a major article in the PCA Bulletin 2007.

I don't think anyone knows which factory made these weights. They are certainly well made, and it is possible that they are 'later Bacchus', but there is no evidence to make the link: no crossover of canes from classic Bacchus weights, which you might expect.

I'd love to know the SG of this weight - I suspect it will only just qualifies as lead crystal glass, and be around 2.90 to 2.93.

Regards

Alan

[alexander]

Aaaahhh... old English weights, such a clear cut field

I don't know how to measure the SG of the weight so I can't tell you much on that,
it's a very heavy weight tho, with great magification, especially when seen at an angle from the side.

I was wondering - what do you think of the p. 161 weight I mentioned?
That one seems very similar to several Bacchus weights and also includes a cane that matches these other two.

I hope that the other English makers are identified in the fullness of time, some of the weights are
very well made and deserve a proper attribution.

I have looked at your website articles for some length, but I didn't get a OE1 group feeling regarding my weight,
at least not from the pictures in the article.

[tropdevin]

Hi Alexander

Old English weights are indeed difficult to attribute accurately! One problem is that the various makers were using similar glass, with similar standard colours, and no doubt fairly standard moulds.  So very similar canes can arise from different sources.  But sometimes canes were made that were specific to individual manufacturers (except where workers took sections of cane with them when they moved jobs, or the factory closed....).  I think that the 'classic Bacchus' weights often have canes unique to Bacchus.

But it worries me when Bob describes weights in his book as Bacchus, which don't quite look like Bacchus to me, have no unique Bacchus canes, and writes about them comments such as " an unusual early weight" or "several unusual features" or "probably an early piece...as the quality and finish are not of the highest standard..".  I prefer the simpler explanation - they are not Bacchus weights!  In my view, out of the 115 weights shown in the Bacchus chapter of Bob Hall's book, 92 are probably Bacchus.  The other 23 are from other manufacturers, and I believe that several are from the OE1 group: p.21 upper left, p. 27 upper left, p. 44 bottom, p. 45 top.  Also in the chapter on unknowns, I would certainly add p. 161 top, and maybe p. 161 lower as well; p. 167 top right; p. 171 top right; p. 174 top right.  Quite a few of the others are Richardson or Walsh Walsh - the book is the best work on Old English weights around, but it now needs updating and revising.

What some of the OE 1 Group share is a style of cane that has a thin layer of colour or clear glass embedded within a thicker white layer, as in the four lobed cross in the outer row of canes of your weight.  I will produce a composite image of some of these and post it later.

Regards

Alan

[alexander]

Btw - an interesting object for sale on lauritz.com - what appears to be a OE1 whiskey glass :

Glass

Wrongly identified as St. Louis.

[tropdevin]

Hi Alexander

It may be OE 1, but it is more likely to be an Arculus or Walsh Walsh glass.  Millefiori items from these two makers appear regularly - I have 7 shot glasses, as well as two jugs, two dishes, a wine glass, and 2 large tumblers!  There are usually more rows of canes than are present in this item though.

Alan

[alexander]

It was the centre cane that led me to think OE1, it's partially hidden under a bubble but it looks very similar to the
canes you highlighted in your article on your site.

A tumbler with an OE weight in the bottom! I'd love to see pics  

[tropdevin]

Hi Alexander

Here is an image of some of our Old English pieces with millefiori bases, and also the image I promised of OE1 Group canes.  I have added the edge canes of your weight to show the similar style. I'm not saying yours is definitely OE1, but more like that than Bacchus.

Alan

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/rosismum/26AWWGlassesjugs.jpg

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/rosismum/OE1canesAlex.jpg


Moderator: Large images converted to links

[KevinH]

Alan's combo photo of the canes shows something very interesting ...

Botom left canes - lowest 4-lobe example has a "doubled-lobe" ...which looks like ....
...the Cross of Lorraine, so maybe it's not OE at all, but French!!!