Topic: exquisitely engraved goblet :-) just rec'd, help with attribution, dating please

[Ming]

Krsilber
Don't get upset from what l said about your glass. After all it is like a painting what you see may not be same as me. Glass is a very difficult subject to master as there is so many variables. After 5 year collecting  glass l still have a lot to learn.

Here is what is engraved on a late Victorian cranberry glass and the lion head is half inch high

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m313/courtoak/Cranberry3.jpg

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m313/courtoak/Cranberry2.jpg

[Ohio]

Your piece appears to be acid etched. A  common problem arises in the US. Probably  1/2 of all people use the term 'etched" interchangibly between acid etching & copper wheel cutting which is incorrect. Now as to the "raised" feel it's understandable because the sense of touch leads one to believe its raised due to the depth of the etching into the surface that may vary with the concentration & time of exposure the pattern is subjected to by hydrofloric acid, potassium fluoride & water.  

[aa]

Your piece appears to be acid etched.

Which piece are you referring to, please? There are three different people in this thread who have posted images! - Krsilber (Kristi), Carolyn  and Ming.

[Patrick]

Your piece appears to be acid etched.

Hi,
 Are you talking about Kristi's goblet ??

To me it looks engraved/cut.    Regards,   Patrick.

[Frank]

Don't forget sandblasting, not relevant to pieces in this thread, see the list of dates of introduction (current knowledge) of various techniques here. If you know earlier dates, please post there. Sandblasting is the dominant technique for engraving/etching today and can be combined with other techniques. The bottom line was the cost of production in a competitive market. But Stourbridge kept to traditional methods far longer than was healthy for the businesses. But fashion in the 1920s started to prefer simple styles of decoration and this resulted in the loss of the best skills. There are individuals around the world today who have recovered much of the highest skills but they mostly work independently. Steuben and Baccarat certainly continued the finest engraving to modern times and there was much done in other countries that is not well documented in the West. But as there seems to be a slow but steady resurgence in interest in cut/engraved (and other forms of post production decoration) this should start to get documented in the coming years.


p.s. a short link, as above, looks like this when you edit a message:

Code: [Select]

[url=http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,6965.0.html]here[/url]
Some of the signs:
Sandblasting, under high magnification you can see the pits where the grit hit the glass.
Acid (unpolished) grainy appearance (magnified)

[Ohio]

Sorry I did not notice at the time that someone had posted after a prior discussion.Carolyn's piece was the one I was referring to.

[Ohio]

Frank...sandblasting...absolutely. The Tiffin Modern Glass line in the US used it on a regular basis. Below are a few examples.

[krsilber]

Carolyn - your piece is definitely etched.  I've seen a very similar design a few times, but don't remember it ever being identified, so it's particularly interesting that you got yours from Bohemia Glass.  I agree with Ohio that sometimes an etching may appear to be raised or may even feel raised because of the roughness of it (engravings are seldom very rough), but since it is a process of removal by the acid eating away at the glass it shouldn't actually end up raised.  I used to be quite interested in etched glass and still have lots of it; it was a very common form of decoration of Elegant American glass.  This site has many examples of etches:  [LINK REMOVED] (search for "etch*").  Even here there is one I noticed that looks like a cutting rather than an etch (Columbine on a Bryce stem).  I looked for yours in the Unknown Etchings category and searched for "thistle" but didn't see it, though there are similar ones there.

Ming - I'm not upset about what you said, and likewise I hope you're not upset with me, either!  Part of the reason glass is so fascinating is because it's a neverending learning experience, and I, too, have lots to learn.  I love your lion engraving - lots of character.  Looks more like it would come up and lick your hand, rather than eat you!  If you're interested, here's the link to some of my engraved glass in the Glass Queries Gallery (reminds me that the folder needs updating):  http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/thumbnails.php?album=622&page=1

Ohio - I hadn't heard of the addition of potassium fluoride to the mix.  Any idea what its purpose is?

(Aside:  acid polishing to remove the greyness of cut pieces is a mix of hydrochloric and sulfuric acids, first patented by Richardson in 1857)

Frank - I'm a little confused by the list in the link you posted (thanks, BTW, for showing what the short-form link looks like).  Is the list about techniques for applying transfers, or decorating techniques in general?  For the sandblasting one, are you talking about transferring a stencil of some sort to make the design, which is removed after the sandblasting is done, or is sandblasting part of the process of adding a transfer?

Sandblasting and transfers are a couple of the types of decoration that aren't represented in the Queries Gallery folder, Decorations on Glass.  I realized just two days ago that I have an example of sandblasting, but it's a very boring one.  Maybe Ohio or someone else would care to add a better one (or give me permission and I'll do it)?  I have a couple examples of decals, but it would be nice to see other transfer techniques there too.

There are individuals around the world today who have recovered much of the highest skills but they mostly work independently. Steuben and Baccarat certainly continued the finest engraving to modern times and there was much done in other countries that is not well documented in the West.

I didn't know Baccarat was still doing fine engraving.  Looking at their website, I see a lot of cut glass and a few etched pieces (including the Michaelangelo, which has elements of Renaissance style, but looks etched to me.

Most of the best modern engraving seems to be sculptural, intaglio, and/or representative.  There seems to be far fewer people doing copper wheel engraving, which is the hardest technique to master.   Newer tools like hand-held Dremel or other rotary drills/engravers are commonly used. 

Mod: Links to clicksnipwow removed as site is no longer connected to glass. Please visit http://chataboutdg.com/forums/ and use the search function instead

[aa]

There seems to be far fewer people doing copper wheel engraving, which is the hardest technique to master.   

You are quite correct. Not only is it more difficult to master, it also takes the most time. We could probably sell twice as much of Katharine Coleman's work if she were able to produce more, but she can only engrave about 25 to 30 pieces a year!  http://www.zestgallery.com/artists.php?display=5

[aa]

http://www.gallery.cz/gallery/en/Vystava/1999_11/Ramec_V.html

Kristi, if you have not yet come across the work of Jiri Harcuba, you may find this link interesting

http://www.gallery.cz/gallery/en/Vystava/1999_11/Ramec_V.html