Topic: exquisitely engraved goblet :-) just rec'd, help with attribution, dating please

[Ohio]

Kristi...Aqueous solutions of potassium fluoride will will aid in the etching process
due to the formation of soluble fluorosilicates. I had it in some old notes that Consolidated used it along with hydrofluoric acid to form their etches. As for sandblast examples...the only ones I have are Tiffin & to be honest they are more of a cutting technique than what we normally consider etching so maybe they were not the best examples to use. I know Fenton uses sandblasting today in the items produced by Kelsey Murphy because she brought it with her from Pilgrim. As for engravers I'd put the various crews in Corning from the hand shops of Steuben, Sinclaire, Hoare, Hawkes, etc., & most of the engravers who were largely either Bohemian or French up against anybody, but thats just me. I honestly don't know of any US companies during the elegant period that used anything but hydrofluoric acid to etch glass.   Ken

[Carolyn Preston]

Carolyn - your piece is definitely etched.  I've seen a very similar design a few times, but don't remember it ever being identified, so it's particularly interesting that you got yours from Bohemia Glass.  I agree with Ohio that sometimes an etching may appear to be raised or may even feel raised because of the roughness of it (engravings are seldom very rough), but since it is a process of removal by the acid eating away at the glass it shouldn't actually end up raised.  I used to be quite interested in etched glass and still have lots of it; it was a very common form of decoration of Elegant American glass.  This site has many examples of etches:  http://chataboutdg.com/ (search for "etch*").  Even here there is one I noticed that looks like a cutting rather than an etch (Columbine on a Bryce stem).  I looked for yours in the Unknown Etchings category and searched for "thistle" but didn't see it, though there are similar ones there.

If you follow this link, you will see a listing from replacements.

http://www.replacements.com/webquote/BOCTHI.htm?s1=6G&462995&&OVRAW=bohemian%20crystal%20and%20thistle&OVKEY=bohemia%20crystal%20and%20thistle&OVMTC=advanced&OVADID=34782112522&OVKWID=130061742522

As you can see, it is available and is made by BOHEMIA CRYST (*IMA)  (not sure what *IMA means). But it does seem to be a current company 

I've always called it etched, so I'm glad I'm right (this time)  :chky:

Carolyn

[krsilber]

Carolyn - That's great!  I've wondered for a long time who did that etch.  Never woulda guessed it was Bohemia.

Adam - how exciting to see someone currently using copper wheel!  I've looked at her work before, admire it greatly, but didn't know she used copper.  I see in her biography that they are no longer teaching it in UK schools, which I reckon is part of the reason it has become so uncommon there and elsewhere.

I was familiar with some of Harcuba's work, but that's an excellent site!  Shows lots of it, and gives a nice detailed biography.  Thanks for posting it.


Ken -

As for sandblast examples...the only ones I have are Tiffin & to be honest they are more of a cutting technique than what we normally consider etching so maybe they were not the best examples to use.

The folder I was talking about is for all (cold?) surface decoration techniques, not just etching.  Some people call it etching; as a person who tends to make nice, narrowly defined pigeon-holes for terms (something I'm trying to get past!), I tend to agree with you.  In any case, it's distinct from the acid etching Carolyn was asking about.

As for engravers I'd put the various crews in Corning from the hand shops of Steuben, Sinclaire, Hoare, Hawkes, etc., & most of the engravers who were largely either Bohemian or French up against anybody, but thats just me.

I agree and disagree.  There were certainly very talented individuals working in Corning, but I think the skill among those in the crews varied quite a bit.  I also think it's important to consider that the designs were tailored to the engraving of which they were capable.  Perhaps there were people in Corning who could have engraved Dominic Bieman's portraits or Woodall's Moorish Bathers, I don't know.  And maybe someone was capable of engraving my stem, they were just never called upon to do it.  I've spent many hundreds of hours looking at photos of Corning engraving, and I've never seen anything quite as delicate.  There are hundreds of individual cuts on it that are about a mm long, made with the finest of copper wheels.

Maybe I'm making more of my new stem than it deserves, I don't know.

Here's a nice example of a Corning piece in the Renaissance style (on the right).  On the one on the left you can see some nice, tight, curves, but nothing like the ones on my glass!  Below that are a couple photos of George Woodall's Moorish Bathers, for those who haven't had the pleasure of seeing it.  One of my favorite pieces of all time.

[krsilber]

I got an response from the V and A about this piece:

"Dear Kristi Silber,

Thank you for your enquiry. The polished engraving on your goblet is indeed of a very fine quality. I cannot be sure if it is English or not; many Bohemian engravers came to work in Britain during the second half of the nineteenth century, especially in the Stourbridge area. Similar polished wheel engraving was certainly practised by some of them, but I have not seen enough of their work to be able to say more, perhaps you could write to the Broadfield House Glass Museum as they know far more about local glass production during that period.

Best wishes, Reino Liefkes
Head of Ceramics and Glass"

[Patrick]

Hi Kristi,
 I showed your goblet images to Ray Annenberg and he thinks English circa 1850 by Stuart or possibly Webb.
 Small copper wheel engraved and very fine.............................
  All best wishes,  Patrick.

[krsilber]

Thank you very much for showing it to Ray, and thank him for me, too!  When you do, would you mind asking him whether I might occasionally contact him about engraved glass?  I have a couple pieces in particular that I've posted in forums and asked people about, but which are still total mysteries.

1850 - that's earlier than I would have guessed right now.  That would be really cool if it's that old.  (Whenever I talk about "old" glass around here, I become acutely conscious of the different perspectives of "old" between America and Europe.)

[krsilber]

Just in case anyone is interested, I have now talked to several people about this stem, and the consensus seems to be that it is Continental European (Bohemian or French most likely), last quarter of the 19th C.  However, some of their reasoning has to do with the fact that the rim is ground rather than fire finished.  After looking at it again I see a slight distortion and thickening near the rim indicating that it was in fact fire finished.  It may have been ground down very slightly to remove fleabites, although there are some very fine nicks to it, so it would have been done some time ago.  The other possibility is that it was ground when it was engraved to make the edge nice and crisp and perfectly even, since the band near the top would tend to accentuate any irregularities.

No one has any particular suggestions as to who made it, but most commented on the "very fine" engraving.   (In the understated language of antiques, I take that to mean something along the lines of splendiferous. )

I'd like to thank Jane Spillman from the Corning Museum of Glass, Roger Dodsworth of the Broadfield House Glass Museum, Trevor Brown of Cotswold Antiques and Glass, Birgit Bryant and Harald Rath of J.&L. Lobmeyr, Reino Liefkes of the Victoria and Albert Museum, and Ray Annenberg for their input.  Also thanks to those who posted in this thread, and particularly Patrick, who showed photos of the piece to Ray.

[lesley7]

A fascinating post, I should pop in here more often. Your glass is very attractive I must say.
It has always been a vocabulary thing between USA and UK, whilst engraving to me is the general term for disturbing the surface of the glass for decorating, etching tends to be only refering to acid when in the UK.
I will sometimes combine drill, sandblast, diamond point and acid (paste) in one piece of work, as they all have very specific effects. Mostly, though, I will combine sandblast and drill as do a number of engravers in this country.

[Jindra8526]

Good morning (evening) Kristi,

I have seen this piece somewhere... so it indicates me this is the "Bohemian" piece, because in Czech rep. is rather random to see the glass piece produced elsewhere than here.

Problem is that in books are shown only the best and unique pieces so this quite "ordinary" one I have not found. The Lobmeyr is good suggestion, but note that this company was rather the busines and market organisation, not a real producer. Simmilar pieces had been produced in several rafineries in whole Bohemia on the end of 19th century.


I would say this piece is from the last quater of 19th century - we call it "historismus" time when the revival of "old styles" was very popular in central Europe. I would not put my hand to fire to confirm this, just a feeling.

Jindrich

[krsilber]

Lesley, nice to see you here!  Yes, you should stop by more often!  Love your work.  I'm so glad there are people like you keeping the fine art of engraving alive.  Engraved glass is my passion.

Jindrich - "ordinary"!  Not at all.  It's a rather ordinary blank, but engraving in this style simply doesn't get much better.  Jane Spillman, curator at Corning Museum of Glass, called it, "a really fine example of Continental engraving."  The head of Ceramics and Glass at the Victoria and Albert said, "The polished engraving on your goblet is indeed of a very fine quality."

And Lobmeyr (I talked to them, it's not theirs) - Lobmeyr was much more than a business and market organisation.  They did have their own refinery during some periods (even made glass for a short time), as well as home shops working for them.  But even when it was all farmed out to other companies, Lobmeyr (and sometimes artists working with them) did the design work, the most important part.  From J & L Lobmeyr, Zwischen Tradition und Innovation (ed. Peter Noever):  "Ludwig Lobmeyr doubtless was the decisive force in the reform of the Bohemian glass industry in the second half of the 19th century.  In 1876, the German art critic [Friedrich Pecht] wrote about him:  'He represents the large Bohemian industry of this kind almost alone, and all the more rightly so, since he indubitably is its regenerator who lifted it from total depression and lead [sic] it to achievements which are all-out original, second to no time, nor country, superior to most...his entire production is based on his own discriminating taste and his considerable decorative talent.'"  I love Lobmeyr glass, and it always makes me sad when people think of them only in terms of their business side.

So you've seen it before?  Wouldn't surprise me if it's Bohemian.  What other refineries were doing this kind of work?