Topic: My holiday story - unexpected Leerdam ID

[astrid]

Ah, I just have to share my holiday experience of today. I visited the recently re-opened Glass Museum in Leerdam, the Netherlands, and was happily strolling past the many displays, when suddenly my eye fell on a vase I had stored away somewhere as an unknown Czech pressed glass piece. I had never gotten around to asking about it on this forum. I bought it in a lot with a small Schrötter lens vase and the seller had assumed both were bought on a holiday in the Czech republic. Since that was quite possible for the lense vase, I took her ID of the other one as Czech as well.

Turns out my mystery Czech vase was displayed as a Royal Leerdam piece, by Wim Heesen (in 1967 I found out later). Since I don't collect Dutch glass, the last thing I had expected to happen was an ID of one of my vases from the Dutch Glass museum...

Anyway, for some reason this series of vases is not mentioned in the book I have on Leerdam glass. If Ivo or anyone else here knows more about them - for instance the name of the pattern, how common they are, or in what colours the series was produced, etc, more info is welcome!

[chopin-liszt]

 :rah:
What excitement... :clap: :clap: :clap: I hope!

[Ivo]

i have that one in clear - just cannot locate the photograph of it.

[astrid]

i have that one in clear - just cannot locate the photograph of it.

Ivo, do you perhaps have any reference book on Leerdam or Wim Heesen that would indicate whether this was a mass produced item, machine made or more of a mould blown serica? When I leafed through a Wim Heesen glass book at the museum, a similar pattern (but different shape) was referenced there as a serica model, but I'm not sure what that would mean in this case.

Astrid

[Ivo]

sorry no - I don't even know where I found the original reference that this is by Heesen. I just think it looks scarily like Asteroid from Zabkowice.
Perhaps a good search in the glass museum website will get you there. Lots of info for those with patience.  In any case I would suspect that if you make such an elaborate steel mould you don't do it for unica or small series. But that is a hunch.

[Jay]

The Heesen series is called Rosetta (1973) and was made in sage green glass or clear glass only. The little lumps are definitely similar, but I'm not sure that this colour is likely for Leerdam in that period (when very little cobalt blue was produced).

[astrid]

Jay, can I ask about your source here? By no means I wish to disregard the words of any experienced Leerdam collector, but I have a really hard time believing my vase isn't from the same series as the one in the museum. Of course, the one in the museum only had the name Wim Heesen attached to it, no pattern ID or date, but it was very obviously the exact same vase in blue-green (is that sage green?). The only thing I couldn't do was measure it, but the way the dots were placed and faded to the sides and the way the rings were interspaced was exactly the same. If my vase isn't from that series, it's the most exact and blatant copy I've ever seen of a particular design (and probably period as well, as it has ring of tiny scratched wear on the base).

If your knowledge is from a book, maybe the author simply failed to mention the later versions made from the same mold. Couldn't this be a case were initially a vase was made in one or two colours only, but perhaps this colour was added in a later batch? Now I now what to look for, I've found several online, some in this same blue colour, all attributed to Wim Heesen, 60s (and put online at least months before I discussed this vase in this thread, so I apparently wasn't a bad influence either).
 
Astrid

[Jay]

I'm not trying or intending to be definitive in my opinion which is partly intuitive...
Everything I've learned about Leerdam (and Maastricht) leads me to assume that there is an exception to every rule..sometimes two!! 
OTOH I've been at the museum several times in the last weeks and there are quite a lot of 'mistakes' which have crept into their knowledge base. (and which have been filed with the curator) (I gather that the cabinets are being opened regularly for 'adjustment'  I presume that's a sign of work in progress?! ;-)
http://www.nationaalglasmuseum.nl/collectie/weergave/thema?id=35

Like most collectors in this field I feel compelled to see everything verified and documented before I'm really sure it's a fact. (and I've had the glass in my hands, LOL!)
I've started to do my own little bit to clear up some of the errors in the cabinets, but I admit that your particular item is a little late for my main interests so I'm not familiar with the relevant documentary archive. I AM aware that major new 'discoveries' are being made recently in other oeuvres which were previously thought 'fully-documented'.

The museum is currently working hard to complete the online publication of the remaining catalogues, (pop-ups and scripts are a bit dodgy at the moment) and then will be adding the rest of the drawings and photos from it's archive 'in due course', but even then...their records are very far from complete. (partly due to loss/fire damage and partly to secretive collectors, etc.)

Unfortunately it is not easy to identify the source of all the items in the museum depot. If you saw it in the displays then it MAY have come from the factory directly, but may also have been gifted to them with an erroneous description (we have identified several examples of this phenomenon already). Since I am only a bystander at the museum I am restricting my inputs to the fields where I have better knowledge and where original research is still emerging.

Next year there will be several new books which cover 'Undiscovered Leerdam'. Both the Kley Blekxtoon books contained errors and omissions (lack of space was probably also a factor) and some of the designers she just considered 'second rate' and omitted. They include Thomassen who is responsible for many of their best selling designs for functional items in the 60's/70's , and the Heesen family, who made (and make) most and their best work outside the influence of Leerdam at 'de Oude Hoorn'.
http://www.deoudehorn.com/

The museum (NGM) has survived periods with little funding and a few dedicated but frustrated volunteers. It has become clear that some labels have been lost and/or  moved, that some items have been replaced in the 'wrong' box, etc etc.
The Museum is aware of the many gaps in its knowledge and is hoping that the 'Glass Wiki' which is now linked to the site will be able to start the process of filling them in. Let's pray that technology is on our side now!
As the documents are becoming available then researchers are starting to move in and clear up these matters, so I think you can expect that a book covering the period will be produced before too long,

So
*I don't know for sure myself, I'm just suggesting that you can't entirely remove the question mark on the attribution until you see a signed design drawing.
*'you'll just have to be patient' (argh, as always) and hope that the archive develops and improves with the reopened museum and its determined new curator! The drawing would probably be there and will emerge in due course.
*Many of the items in the depot are being viewed by the public for the first time. Feedback to the exhibits is scattered with all sorts of new and conflicting information which will need to be assessed and verified.

Why am I a bit 'suspicious' of the attribution
a) Never saw this one in the wild before, and I see a LOT of Dutch glass! (and! this looks like a mass market item which I would therefore expect to be familiar even if unknown to me?)
b) The switch from heavy colours (pre war) to lighter and brighter colours post war meant that it was into the '70s before dark-bright colours were produced again at Leerdam. I can't find any other contemporary reference to this pallette in Leerdam around that date.
c) I have a pretty good collection of archives at my fingertips which should cover most items which were retailed from the factory, and I can't see this one! (though there is a big gap in everyone's(?) archive at the date you mention)
d) I know there are still quite a few bugs in the museum's information, so I value their attributions against that background.

[astrid]

Thanks Jay for your long and illuminating response. I'll keep the question mark up and I'll refrain from selling till I know more (I usually don't do a lot of selling, but Dutch glass isn't my specialty) - should you learn more, I'd be very happy to be informed. As for seeing more of them 'in the wild', there is currently one in exactly the same colour on marktplaats, albeit a smaller version of only 18 cm (mine is 23 cm). You can find it on www.marktplaats.nl if you search under 'Wim Heesen' filed under 'antiek/glas en kristal' - the link is ridiculously long, so I'll refrain from posting it here). Of course, I understand what sellers say proves absolutely nothing, I merely mention it for reference and to indicate that there are more of these vases in this particular colours around in the Netherlands.

As for the colour, I wouldn't call it cobalt, it's not dark enough. It's an intense lighter blue, more of an azure blue.

Astrid

[Jay]

I've just spoken to a friend who has just received a new book in which (you'll be happy to know) your vase DOES appear.
It was available in helder and blue and several sizes.

Detailed information will follow when I get it.