Topic: ID: Small geometric engraved plate, what was it used for?

[jinxi]

Hi again

Having looked again at the photo, you say that it is not the Greek Key pattern, but I think it is a form of it.

Have a look at this webpage on Greek Key patterns  http://gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/greekkey/intro.htm  and your pattern seems to consist of what they refer to as the meander plus the generator! 

To me it looks Edwardian, again would tie in with classical revival, Sheraton style furniture etc

Veronica

[johnphilip]

I have seen quite a few pieces  of this type of glass over the years , in all shapes and sizes, wine coasters for glasses or bottles under plates for finger bowls ice plates and i have bought several large footed tazzas that i treasure ( YES Paul for peanuts) i believe several firms made them Webb for one . Love em .jp sorry i must be drunk spellcheck tells me they are razzas jp

[Paul S.]

I have twice started this reply ... and in the light of Veronica's rapid comments, have now twice revised my reply   -  and I apologise in advance that this reply is rather long and has little to do with glass.    I think Anne is going to throw this into the cafe.    I'm not going to amend a third time.......sorry jp. but thanks for the enebriated response.
Veronica - wow, thanks for both the culinary and history lessons.   Thought the history of the liqueur type drinks very interesting - maybe C19 Regency sipping of drinks was an improvement on Hogarth's 'Gin Lane and Beer Street depravity.
As to the history of the Greek Key Motif/Design  -  it seems that it was a common ornamental pattern from the second half  of the C18 (Georgian) onwards, both in architecture and jewellery (at least for the U.K.), petering out in the late C19 - so guess it may not have arisen solely from the Grand Tours - which were mostly to Italy, I believe.   
It appears that I may have always been wrong, but in the sense that the 'key' motif' is normally understood to represent the outline, quite literally, of a key  -  then my piece fails in this respect.   However, I hear what you say, and have looked at your link, and the outlines of the various parts that make up repeating patterns.   I would think that you are right in what you say, and that the idea of a 'key motif' should not be seen as needing to actually look like a key in outline.   
When you say that my pattern looks Edwardian (you may well be correct) - I have seen many examples of the traditional (key shape) key motif pattern, but don't recall having seen this precise pattern.
You refer to 'Edwardian Sharaton' - and by this I take it that you are referring to what is a sub-division of the Georgian revival i.e. copying the Adam style which originates in the late C18.    This was a revival 'style' popular from about 1875 through to something like the end of the Edwardian period (1910).
Is historic design your 'thing' - rather than glass?

Anne  -  although I remain unsure of the use of these bowls, but whatever the purpose, then yes, I agree that my example may well be for a similar use, as it looks very much like yours.   What were they for, desert of some kind??   Unless I have missed it somewhere, you don't give the size of your underplates.

Don't think I will collect any more of this design - one is enough.  

[Paul S.]

apologies - (had some fantastic single malt today from Islay)  -  the correct spelling is 'inebriated'.

[johnphilip]

Hi Paul i am as sober as a judge if you can find a sober judge , or is it a jug ? :thud:
The Botanist/ Designer Dr Christopher Dresser used lots of variations of the Greek Key on his wares . c1880 .

[Paul S.]

must admit jp, I didn't know he was into the plants as well.   

[jinxi]

Hi Paul

In answer to your question:-

Is historic design your 'thing' - rather than glass?

I am interested in design, past and present, and glass, amongst other things.  I cannot see how anyone can be seriously interested in glass without a corresponding serious interest in design, to me the two go hand in hand. 

You are right in that the Grand Tour often focussed on Italy but some ventured further afield to Greece, Balkans and Near East; Byron, for example.  The standard classical education included both Latin and Ancient Greek and study of their respective ancient texts and therefore the whole of the classical world was known to them and held some interest.  Think it depended upon the courage of' the individual and the size of his purse. Italy was nearer, safer and easier.

Anyway, returning to the Greek Key pattern, it is also found in Roman mosaics, at Pompeii, for example, so even those visiting Italy came across it.

Veronica

[Paul S.]

quote today from Veronica  -  'I cannot see how anyone can be seriously interested in glass without a corresponding serious interest in design, to me the two go hand in hand'. 
Very laudable comment, but you'd be surprised how many people here won't even know what it is that you are talking about.   The ebay sellers simply want an attribution so they can sell switly and move on the the next piece, and for too many people glass is simply something that shatters if dropped.
Byron certainly did the Grand Tour thingy, and then again later when he was fleeing his creditors and for screwing his half sister, and then ended up 'pushing up daisies' in Greece - just the sort of character that real history is made of.   Unfortunately, it didn't prove 'safe' for him.
I would have thought that there is less attributable design in glass now than, say, back when this plate was made.     I guess it's just another case of the conceptual versus the traditional.   Of course if the makers just made sure their name was always etched on, then we wouldn't have a problem.
You have obviously chosen a very interesting angle in glass study - should keep you busy for ever I would think.     As for a date on my 'plate'  -  and in view of comments from more knowedgeable people than me..........we will have to leave it as possibly somewhere between 1880 and 1910, and I might take it with me on one of my visits to the V. & A. - for their opinion.
thanks for your interesting contribution to this thread.    

[jinxi]

Paul you could always email pics to the V & A, I did so recently for the first time with an unusual old ceramic bowl and was delighted by their swift and detailed response.  The bowl was no great shakes, but old and had aroused my curiousity and I really appreciated their reply.  Many thanks for the kind comments still trying to get to grips with message board - this is my first experience of this form of communication!

Veronica

[claretjugcollector]

hi ! this plate looks to me like the glass insert of an plated epergne made by elkington - somethink like that ...