Topic: who ( was ) is the best glass engraver and why ?!

[oldglassman]

These old timers take some beating though , David Wolff ex Drambuie Collection

 Cheers ,
             Peter.

[Frank]

Wow Peter, never seen that... exquisite!

I guess the problem is that engraving is such an individual art and thus appeals to the observer's taste. The richness of what has been engraved is mostly hidden as, mostly, each work is unique and a b ugger to photograph. We can only expect to experience first hand a dribble of what has been done. Unlike most forms of glass art it really does need to be seen and handled to fully experience it.

[krsilber]

Lots of people have suggested names for "best engraver," but few have addressed the second half of the question - why?  To me it seems there are at least two aspects to the question:  who is most adept with the tools, and who does great design (and obviously they aren't always the same person on a given piece of glass!).  It can be further broken down into categories, as Bernard did.  One could look at who did the most realistic portraits, scenes, floral, etc...who did the best stylized portraits, scenes, floral...who was/is best at cut-to-clear...most innovative...great overall design...best at the fine line, non-representational, ornate stuff (along the lines of much Lobmeyr, for instance), etc.  And as Bernard points out, much of what was done in the past is not signed or recorded.  Tough question, with many answers!

To me stipple engraving, even though there are many excellent and beautiful examples of it, can't be regarded in the same way as wheel engraving.  It is essentially a drawing method applied to glass, whereas wheel engraving isn't the same applied to other materials because of the way it affects the reflection and transmission of light.  Neither is "better" than the other, but as a method of glass ornamentation I think wheel engraving is more variable and flexible in the way it can be used.

Interesting discussion!  Lots of great examples of modern glass workers - it's nice to see the art is not dead yet!

(By the way, George Woodall is my favorite I think)

[Frank]

You missed aspect 3 and probably the most lacking in the engraving world - who is the best artist.

This is why I feel stipple beats the field as it allows the most expressive work. Yes there are some dam ned good copper wheel engravers but mostly it is copied art, and yes the expressiveness is copper wheel varies enormously by engraver. But if you experience what Whistler did at close quarters (lost in photos) something hits the gut. At that level it is such a personal issue that the concept of best simply drops out of the equation. Nothing I have seen in glass has had quite the 'gut' impact on me as seeing and handling a piece of Whistlers work.

Well not quite true, there was one more, a cameo piece of an Eskimo in Kayak (It is in Hadjamach 1800-1914 and is now at Broadfield House) but the engraver slips my mind. This piece had that gut effect too, as I turned it in my hand it was like experiencing a surreal form of movie... it just lived. I think it was Hodgett.

Apart from that I have been awed at the skill of many but not had that gut impact. Outside of glass there are a few paintings and sculptures that have impacted me, some of which I have the joy of owning and never regretted.

[oldglassman]

    quote =====To me stipple engraving, even though there are many excellent and beautiful examples of it, can't be regarded in the same way as wheel engraving.  It is essentially a drawing method applied to glass, whereas wheel engraving isn't the same applied to other materials because of the way it affects the reflection and transmission of light.  Neither is "better" than the other, but as a method of glass ornamentation I think wheel engraving is more variable and flexible in the way it can be used.=====

Sorry ::)But I really cant agree with the above comment 'stippling is essentially a drawing method applied to glass'.

Stippling is created by removing tiny dots of glass with a diamond point, IE the removal of glass to create an image,the same as wheel engraving removes glass and also Cameo cut glass,the difference with stippling is that its what's not been removed that creates the image(as is cameo cut glass) and these images to me are the most ethereal I have ever come across in any medium and probably the hardest to achieve,borne out by the fact that until a very very few 20THC exponents revived the art it was primarily the domain of the 18THC Dutch stippler's,who in their day were more highly regarded and much fewer than the very many wonderfull wheel engravers working concurrently,
  with regard to the 'reflection and transmission of light' on stipple engraved glass until you have had 1 in the hand and noticed that until the glass is held and looked at from the same angle as when the stippling was done the result is almost completely hidden from the eye,get the correct angle for viewing and Hay Presto the image appears, which is why they are so difficult to photograph,

I am not saying that stippling is the best form of engraving ,cutting,carving, but surely their extreme rarity,(only 12 or so  are known world wide having 3 putti on clouds like mine by wolff) and desirability put stipple engravers somewere near the top of the 'best evers'

cheers ,
           Peter.

[krsilber]

Hee hee, I thought that might raise a few comments!

"You missed aspect 3 and probably the most lacking in the engraving world - who is the best artist." 

I would argue that the best artist combines the two other aspects I mentioned:  best designer, and most adept with the tools (well, ok, and having the best understanding of the medium...and the worst temper, and the weirdest habits, lowest income, etc.  Oh wait, that's me, and I ain't the best artist in town.  Yet  :X: :sm:).  And "most lacking in the engraving world"?  I'd definitely disagree with that!  Thems fightin' words! :vkg:

It's true that I haven't handled stippled work, but I've seen it up close and know how it's done.  I still think it's basically a drawing method, although the tools, medium and outcome are different - just as they are when applied to a copper plate when printmaking.  It was an outgrowth of diamond point line engraving, which was practiced in Holland principally by amateurs, according to Buckley's The Art of Glass .  There are stippled pieces out there that aren't gut-wrenching - there's nothing about the method (or the rarity of its use) per se that makes a piece of glass beautiful.  Clearly Whistler was an outstanding artist!

If I implied stipple didn't involve reflection and transmission of light, I was wrong about that...of course it does.  But both wheel engraving and stipple rely on what hasn't been removed to create their effects.  I don't see the difference there.

Wheel engraving is mostly copied art?  I don't understand that, and it's certainly not something that separates it from stipple.  Frans Greenwood, the "father" of stipple, did mostly copies of copper engravings, and he wasn't alone in using them for inspiration - in fact, a likeness of Greenwood stippled on glass was copied from a copper engraving.

[chopin-liszt]

Taste in art is completely subjective.
My own taste jumps straight from Mediaeval to 20th century. It does not really stop off anywhere inbetween, with the very odd exception, although I've certainly seen enough of it to give it a really good chance.
I can't really comment on a lot of engraved stuff, because I simply detest the images portrayed.

For me then, Denis Mann, must be one of those right at the top, the execution of the hands in "Dischord" equals that of Durer, and the the wit and originality of the piece most definitely confirms him as an original artist as well as one of the most most technically competent.

Similar comments can also be made about Alison Kinnarid and Katharine Coleman - real artists.

While I can appreciate the technical competence of some of the other work which has been suggested, I just wonder why they wasted their time drawing putrescent putti and copying other stuff which simply leaves me cold.

[oldglassman]

quote==== 'Taste in art is completely subjective'.====== of course this is 100% correct however comments such as .

quote==== 'I just wonder why they wasted their time drawing putrescent putti and copying other stuff'=== !!!!!!!!?

lets take for example the superb stippled glasses by Wolff and Alius  carrying the image of innocent little cherubs rolling barrels into a celler and toasting themselves ,with the inscription' Hansie in de kelder ' these fine glasses were commissioned by the elite of the day to announce to their assembled guests,( who would have been presented with the glass to use), that the hostess was 'With Child' , which was the polite custom of the day, witty, origional,not copied and completely unique,and with regard to wheel engraved glasses , lets now look at an example by jacob Sang mid 18thc Amsterdam one of the finest wheel engravers of his time , called a 'friendship glass' though to the recipient a far clearer message is contained in the image (see pic) , more than friendship is being asked for !!!, again origional,witty and superbly engraved,

I think both of the glasses quoted display all the characteristics reffered to in Sue(m)'s post'
'the wit and originality of the (those) piece(S) most definitely confirms him (them) as an original artist(s) as well as one(some) of the most most technically competent.'

Cheers .
           Peter.
ps pic does not do the quality of the engraving justice,and Alius's 'Hansie in de Kelder will follow when i figure out how to photgraph an almost invisible subject :X:

[oldglassman]

  A quick snap of ' Hansie in de Kelder' by the stippler named 'Alius' so named as there are no known signed examples of his work and attribution is made by comparison and the differences in his style to other known and signed stipples,and if i may add , though i do accept that rarity is no measurement for quality,this example is unrecorded in current literature and is possibly a unique example by  one of the finest exponants of stipple engraving.

ps much fun has been had with this glass, on first look in the hand by most the stippling is completely hidden to the eye, as said before, untill the correct angle for veiwing is used , :thud:      pretty neat !!!! eh !!!! :hiclp:

Cheers ,
           Peter.

[oldglassman]

quote====  "You missed aspect 3 and probably the most lacking in the engraving world - who is the best artist."  ===

I really do think the only acceptable answer to this question is , 'the artist that you admire the most' , one mans meat another mans poison etc ,I seriously dont think  it would be possible to single out any 1 person either past or present  who would qualify to all as 'The Best',which is why glass in all its various forms styles and ages appeals to such a huge variety of people

Cheers ,
               Peter.