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Author Topic: cranberry glass i.d.  (Read 1397 times)

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Offline malc57

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cranberry glass i.d.
« on: August 10, 2011, 08:38:10 AM »
Hi
New to glass and thirsting for knowledge! At the moment trying to figure out how to tell different types of cranberry glass i.e. what differentiates an antique Victorian piece from a recent piece. (see photos) Is there a book that anyone could recommend.

Thanks in advance for any/all advice



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Offline Paul S.

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Re: cranberry glass i.d.
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2011, 07:56:52 PM »
Hello malc57  -  Looking at your decanter, I think I'm seeing a rather poorly ground pontil mark (that rough bit on the underside that is left after the piece of glass is broken away from the pontil rod) - also looks as though the stopper is showing some moulding lines possibly, and the base looks a little too clean and bright.   Therefore, your decanter is quite possibly modern  -  cranberry glass is still made in eastern Europe and the U.K. (I'm not entirely certain about the U.K., but Dartington were producing it in the 1990's) - and is often made to copy the earlier C19 styles.      Genuine C19 pieces would be made to a higher degree of quality, and larger pieces will often show a ground/polished pontil mark on the base (similar to your piece but finished properly by polishing).    Both old and new pieces share this not uncommon style of decoration, whereby applied handles etc. were/are often produced from clear glass, so this cannot be used as a guide to age, unfortunately.       
'Cranberry' coloured glass started in the U.K. fairly early in the C19 - and it's important not to confuse this very common type of coloured glass with something quite different, called 'Gold Ruby Glass', which has a much older provenance and more importantly a very different method of manufacture (belive I'm correct in saying that 'Ruby' needs to be re-struck in order for the colour to appear  -  whereas 'Cranberry' is coloured by the addition of selenium (usually).      'Ruby' is deeper in colour, as you'd imagine, and has its origins in eastern Europe.
The intensity of colour in both C20 and Victorian cranberry does vary noticably, and colour is not a reliable guide to differentiating between the two (can apparently go from pink to cherry).    What will help you to date pieces (give an approximate guide as to whether the piece is 120 years old or made recently), will be wear (at the high points and on the base) - seeds and stones in the glass (small undiluted matter, or foreign matter - often showing up as tiny irregular grey pieces of dirt) and the absence, or otherwise, of 'lines' on the glass wall.  I would suggest that genuine 'wear' can be the greatest guide to age, so spend time looking at any glass you come across, paying attention in particular to wear on the base (underside).       Remember to look for wear!!             If there is a complete absence of wear, I'd feel reasonably convinced I was looking at a modern piece of glass.     Spend as much time as you can looking at glass  -  even clear glass is not all clear, and you'd be surprised what lurks within what is supposed to be clear glass.
Unfortunately, I am not aware of any book dedicated to cranberry, but wouldn't be surprised in the States haven't got one, especially as they seem to be very keen on collecting 'Mary Gregory' glass.       This, as you may have seen is often (but of course not always) in cranberry, and decorated with whymsical images of C19 rural scenes of children or other naive characters.    A word of warning, be very careful if buying 'Mary Gregory' glass, as I understand there are a lot of recently produced pieces out there.   
Most U.K. books often have a section on cranberry glass - although the content maybe small - maybe someone hear can help you better than me on this particular point, and suggest one or two books worth reading on this subject :)

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Offline malc57

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Re: cranberry glass i.d.
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2011, 09:16:08 PM »
Thanks Paul

I was beginning to think that cranberry glass was a no go area until you kindly took the time to post this very thorough and interesting reply. I have another piece of glass, with damaged clear glass flower decorations, that i thought was old but now i am not so sure (see pic) It could be that my time would be better spend in other areas; i have just received a copy of 20th Century British Glass by Charles R Hajdamach so that should keep me busy for a while.

Regards
Malcolm

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: cranberry glass i.d.
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2011, 09:41:35 PM »
have to say Malcolm that it doesn't look right somehow (the flowers look rather clumsy and crude), and can only repeat that if you are unable to find any wear, then you probably have a modern piece of glass.        Try going to boot sales, or trawling the charity shops  -  not necessarily to buy, but just to look at the available glass and to learn what 100 years worth of wear looks like when applied to a piece of glass.   I know you will enjoy Hajdamach's book  '20th Century British Glass'  -  although have to say that his earlier offering... 'British Glass 1800 - 1914' will provide you with a lot more data on cranberry glass.     So you must now get that volume as well :)    Best of luck.

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Offline Lustrousstone

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Re: cranberry glass i.d.
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2011, 06:52:25 AM »
I would say your second piece is a classic piece of Victorian glass (especially with the "pump" handle), but I wouldn't like to comment on the first. I am now going to disagree with Paul on several counts (what's new? Paul says).

The flowers are often are clumsy and crude on Victorian glass.
Lack of much wear is not necessarily an indication of lack of age; lack of use or lack of dusting maybe. Nor is a lot of wear necessarily indicative of great age.
Moulding is not exclusive to modern times, nor are poorly finished pontil marks, nor is poor quality. Well finished pontil marks can be of any age.

Seeds do generally indicate older rather than newer.
Slight wonkiness probably points to older.
Lead crystal (i.e., a good ring) may point to older, especially in coloured glass that looks to be of an older style.

Study styles of glass; it hasn't all come back into fashion.
Visit antique and not-so-antique centres. If you see the same item in different places more than once over a short period of time, start to be suspicious. There's a lot of new cranberry about.
Look at glass of all colours and ages; handle it.
Read as many general books about glass as you can. Read glass message boards, even areas you don't collect. Read books about glass from the period you are interested in. You may find US books about cranberry glass; they have books about most things.

Buy items (cheap ones) for research and to ask questions about on here. Some will be winners, some will be losers.
Never believe things you read on ebay unless you can back it up from a reliable source.

Above all invest time and you will learn to put the clues together. There is no single clue.

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: cranberry glass i.d.
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2011, 08:40:11 AM »
Malcolm - if you stay with us you will soon realize that Lustrousstone is a very knowledgable lady when it comes to glass  -  and whilst we do cross swords occasionally, it is always (I hope) in good humour, and I have learned much from my exchange of words with Christine over the past year or two.    
The whole subject of original versus repro C19 glass (including cranberry) is quite complex, and everything that Christine says is true of course.      As to your comment about cranberry being a no go area, can say with certainty that is not the case  -  although the lack of interest (in the U.K. at least) is more due to this particular type of glass quite probably being 'out of fashion'.               Perhaps 10 or 15 years ago, or more, cranberry was more alive and kicking with interest  -  similar to carnival glass, and some of the C19 pressed glass areas  -  but people are nothing if not fickle, and tastes change or shift and we have apparently now all discovered Murano / Czechoslovakian / Scandinavian / Scotting / Whitefriars / Mdina / Dartington and the smaller studio outputs  -  i.e. we have all become modernist.             It's a case of 'discovering'  new areas of collecting.     However, there are some very clever people here who know vast amounts about earlier material, and collecting C19 -early C20 pressed glass is an easy/cheap way of getting into glass and learing about 'stuff'. :)

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Offline Lustrousstone

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Re: cranberry glass i.d.
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2011, 09:54:43 AM »
...but if you are interested in cranberry most of it is blown (I can't think of any pressed cranberry), presumably because it was in first fashion before pressed glass became economic and the cost of the colorant (gold it seems http://www.glassencyclopedia.com/goldrubyglass.html) was and is too prohibitive for the scale of pressed glass production.

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Offline KevinH

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Re: cranberry glass i.d.
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2011, 11:15:12 PM »
Quote
... we have apparently now all discovered Murano / Czechoslovakian / Scandinavian / Scotting / Whitefriars / Mdina / Dartington and the smaller studio outputs  -  i.e. we have all become modernist.
That does not apply to me. ;D

And Paul, please do not use "/" without a space either side for a long string of words as it upsets the natural sentence positioning. (I have put on my Mod hat and edited your string to add the spaces.)
KevinH

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: cranberry glass i.d.
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2011, 09:29:07 AM »
figure of speech of course - and yes, 'generalizing' always invites someone to dissent somewhere.    Noted re the slashes / spacing etc. :)

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Offline ahremck

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Re: cranberry glass i.d.
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2011, 01:29:07 PM »
Paul do not be discouraged if your glass is modern - I remember well going into a shop full of Victorian & Edwardian glass where the owner had classified what to my eyes was a modern studio piece as "Victorian".  I had to inform her that she was correct - it was Victorian in that it had been made here in Victoria by a lady who was currently working in Melbourne.  I did ask her what I thought was an obvious question - how many "Victorian" pieces of glass had she seen scratch signed by an artist? 

In my opinion it is most likely modern from a studio who do not mark all of their production.

Ross
I bamle all snileplg eorrrs on the Cpomuter Kyes.  They confuse my fingers !!!

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