Topic: jelly or custard cup? Victorian or Georgian?

[ju1i3]

Any thoughts on this please. Is it for jelly or custard? Era? Just over 7.5 cm tall. The base appears to be polished.
thanks

[Paul S.]

In view of the handle, this would be described as a custard' - rather than a 'jelly' - a C20 collectors classification more than a contemporary description.    It seems that early sales lists etc. didn't use these names, but words like syllabub and sillibub are mentioned quite commonly.               Generally speaking, those examples that are tall, with bell-shaped bowls without stems or handles are called jellies  - and the shorter bucket/cup shaped bowls fitted with handles are described as custards.
Although collectors differentiate in view of handle or no handle, there are nonetheless early examples of jellies with handles, and there are some very rare pieces with double loop ('B' shaped) handles.
It would appear that what we call jellies arrived on the scene first (as far back as c.1730  -  with the deep narrow bowl with various moulded patterns, snapped pontils and high domed feet), and it is probable that the shape was a continuation of C18 short ales and drams, so perhaps they considered they already had an adequate design (which was without a handle, generally).     Custards as such don't seem to appear until we get into the Victorian period,  but that is just a thought, as I'm not really well up on these things - but they are seen not uncommonly and they make a very interesting area for collecting - and because they are small you can pack a lot into the cabinet          I'll take a bit of a punt re dating, and the fact that yours is flute cut  -  sits on a slightly domed foot (wear on the very outer edge) -  is without a stem - has a pre c.1860 handle  -   might suggest a date of somewhere between 1830 and 1850  -  plus the cutting is indicating Victorian also.      If anything it might possibly be a little later in date, however.
Variation in custards is infinite, less so in jellies - hope you don't object to me adding a couple of pics.  -  the second one does in fact show typical rib moulded Georgian jelly glasses (no handle) from something like 1750 - 1760.

Ref. 'Seetmeat and Jelly Glasses - Therle Huges  -  1982..........and...........The Arthur Negus Guide to British Glass - John Brooks  -  1981.    Although very small, Hughes is about the only guide devoted specifically to sweetmeats/jellies/custards, but it is cheap, and a useful intro. if you know nothing about the subject.

[Paul S.]

meant to say also that your description of polished base, could be misleading, if at some time the pictures become unavailable.         Correctly, it is a ground/plished pontil mark, found common on better quality pieces throughout the C19.

[Paul S.]

"It seems that early sales lists etc. didn't use these names, but words like syllabub and sillibub are mentioned quite commonly."            My current bedside reading is E. M. Elville's  'English Table Glass'  -  published 1951 (revised edition 1960).     Obviously John Brooks was unaware - and so was I until now - that the word 'jelly' was indeed used as a contemporary description, and Elville does provide proof in the form of Lady Grisell Baillie (Scottish diarist) who noted 'Jelly glasses' at Lord Carliles Dinner party in 1722.     Elville also quotes from the Worcester Journal and the General Advertiser  -  1757 and 1788 respectively  -  where the word 'jelly' is used, and if anyone is interested it's pages 110 and 121 in Elville's book.         So, I was guilty of perpetuating an error - now corrected I hope.             
Incidentally, Elville is an extremely good read if you are at all interested in all forms of table glass - a good historical overview, plus information of glass itself, coming right up to the C20  -  although as the title says, it is concerned with English glass.   
I was surprised that no one else had commented - there must surely be GMB people out there who know vastly more than me on this subject  -  after all, I was really only quoting from books.

[ju1i3]

Thanks very much for the info. When it says "table glass", does it include vases? I posted a question a few weeks ago about small vases put out at each place with dessert. Are those mentioned? thanks

[Paul S.]

The answer is that Elville doesn't refer to vases as such, and as far as I'm aware, none of the items which we have been discussing are ever described as such.    I don't now recall your original post - must have missed it somehow  -  but presumably you are referring to some sort of 'stemmed desert glasses for finger-lifted sweetmeats' or comfits -  perhaps with a pan top (but not with a lid I assume).   If you can link the original post to which you refer, we can look again.     You should get Therle Hughes book, I think you'd find it very helpful.