Topic: Monart Glass formula ??

[KevinH]

how did you get on Kevin, did you get all your weights you were after,

No! But I still spent enough money to stop me buying food for the next three months.

[millarart]

No! But I still spent enough money to stop me buying food for the next three months.

hahaha well least you got some,  :smg:

[nigel benson]

Hiya,

I managed to buy one (!!!!) of the Monart lots, the rest being about right for what they were IMHO. Just missed them catalogues though.........arrrrgggggh!!

Anyway, I had a very enjoyable phone call from that young Gary (Millarart) last night.

Amongst other things we discussed the labels. Firstly, I felt that the Monart was all post war. Given that that was the case, then this may explain the unusual coding. My thought was the codes might have been swapped over because they used the last of the original enamels from the pre war era. Knowing that new enamels were having to be sourced elsewhere they could have taken this into account and coded the labels accordingly. Then, as we know, when the new enamels were used, no colour code was put on the label.

Just thought, this would also have the added advantage for Paul of differentiating between his work and the pre war items.

Just an hypothesis, that might be worth discussion.

As for the formulas, given the provenance, I believe that they are correct as formula. The Monax will need Frank's thoughts, but there is no mention of an attribution on the longer formula, so it could have come from any glass works, so would still have historic value - if only the source could be proved

Good to see Andy and Kevin there Shame about them phones though.........................!!!

Nigel

[millarart]

hahaha god damm phones lol :sm:,
i have to say nigel and myself had a good lenghty conversation covering many subjects of monart glass, and between us i think we came up with a few ideas that seemed to be practical and make sense, there was also some humour thrown into the conversation which had us both giggling away, i think a few of the things we spoke about needs to be brought out into the open for input from others, which im sure Nigel will agree with, so something to pass these early dark and cold evenings ahead of us maybe, oh and on the subject of the formulas i dont know why the auction house put on the listing that one was for Monart glass formula , when there is no mention on the letters anything about Monart, anyway time and some research will tell  :X: (maybe), sounds like Nigel was the underbidder on the catalogues, Mmmmmmmm wonder who the winning bidder could have been , they may have been winning bidder on that lovely post war mushroom lamp too   :thup:

[Frank]

Very odd on that formula was the 'London Office'

[millarart]

Very odd on that formula was the 'London Office'

Nigel your thoughts on this please^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  :help:

[nigel benson]

OK, in case anyone doesn't know the provenance of the catalogues and the envelope containing the two pages of formula I shall explain.

The vendor's father worked for Royal Worcester as an Area Manager. It is believed that they took over the London office representing Monart/Moncrieff and that these documents came from that office. We do not know any more detail at this stage, nor apparently do the auctioneers.

Assuming that the story is accurate, then it could explain "The London Office".

It shouldn't be impossible to check whether both companies used the same address. For instance, there will be records held at Kew, which I can check out in the fullness of time (things are busy at this time of year, so I'm not sure when I'm next going).

There is another idea for checking which I will look into and get back to you on.

Nigel

[millarart]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   Thanks Nigel for your response in helping to clarify this matter and look forward to the findings , ps Nigel ive sent you my details via email mate

[Frank]

PG for 1931 list no London agent for Moncrieff. Royal Worcester were at 8 St Andrew street EC4 and list no representations in their entry... Makes little sense as Moncrieff's market was in engineering and most of their overseas agents were indeed in the engineering trade. With Liberty as about the only London outlet... again not much value in an agent. No mention on any Moncrieff papers I have about a London office.

PG for 1910 Moncrieff do not even list themselves and only included an entry for their Tay Glass Works under Tomey & Son. Royal Worcester showroom same address as 1931

PG 1889 neither Moncrieff nor Tomey listed... RW same London address

[Gary]

Whilst not doubting the authenticity of any lots being Monart pieces or indeed the labels being genuine Monart manufactured labels, my problem is with the order of size code, shape code and colour code that are on all of the labels that the vendor had for sale at this auction. There a number of reasons why I have reservations with the labels.

1 The accepted fact to date, that only pre war Monart labels (Monart Ware or Monart Glass) had the coding in the sequence of size code, shape code and then colour code and post war labels (Monart Glass) only had the shape code then size code.

2 The use of 00 as a colour code on the GC shaped does not ring true, the two labels I have seen with a colour code below ten where written as 4 and 6 not as 04 and 06. Not that I am certain on this, the GC vase appears to be the colour scheme of green rising to clear and gold aventurine, which would make it colour code 428.

3 All of a sudden one vendor has on his Monart pieces with labels, this unusual sequence of coding. This is to much a coincidence that one collector would have only this type label and no “normal” Monart labels.

4 Paul Ysart Monart Paperweights with labels are fairly rare; this vendor had one on every paperweight.

5 There was a blank label on the post war mushroom lamp, could it be whoever wrote the other labels did not know the shape code or size code therefore decided to leave it blank.

This leads me to believe at some point someone has obtained genuine blank Monart labels and added them to the pieces of Monart though albeit with the wrong coding sequence.
There are blank Monart Glass labels in the Perth museum Monart archives, which were donated by I Turner who in turn got them from Betty Reid (dispatch clerk at Moncrieff’s) along with catalogues price list and other ephemera. As some genuine Monart catalogues and price list have turned up it is not inconceivable that some blank labels got out and have been added to pieces at a later date.
These are my personal assumptions and in no way am I implying the vendor of any wrongdoing or knowledge of any wrongdoing.
Gary