Topic: Id help for Concentric Paperweight

[SimonD]

Does anyone have any ideas of the maker of this paperweight? It's quite large (3 inches) and has a concentric design - with a large central cane, a row of of distinct canes with a complex centre, then an odd 'verge' of green, with an outer row of alternating canes. All the canes are complex. They are set of a clear ground. The base has a large pontil which is recessed a little way.

I haven't been able to cane-match on this one. If I were to guess, I'd say this is Scottish, probably Ysart Brothers. The ring of solid green is something I've only ever seen in Salvador Ysart weights though usually have a lampwork design (eg carousel, butterfly, 3D flower) floating above.

I'd be tickled if anyone can shed any light on the age/maker!

Best wishes
SimonD

[tropdevin]

***

I would certainly go with Scottish, Ysart family - but my money would be heavily on Paul Ysart, 1930s-1940s, given the purple tinge to the clear glass (an effect from too much manganese in the glass mixture, probably catalysed by exposure to the UV in sunlight). The green ground is consistent with Paul's work.  It looks too neat for Ysart Bros - but I'm sure Kev will have a more definitive view.

Alan

[KevinH]

Purple tint to clear glass is also seen in, at least, some Salvador Butterfly weights, so is not purely a possible indicator of Paul's work.

The canes in this weght match others known in Ysart Brothers items. In this instance I do not know of any of the canes in this weight also being found in Paul's work. The setting is, indeed very clean but many weights attributed to Salvador are of (almost) equaly quality to Paul's.

On balance, and also taking account of the rather odd-looking milky white bits, I vote for a Salvador-made weight. Probably YB period.

I think it would look good amongst my other Ysart bits - and I am always happy to receive presents.

[Roger H]

    Hello Kevin, if I add this to the "now" thread does it help or does it confuse more the analysis of which Ysart?
       If it doesnt help feel free to remove this posting. Regards Roger.

[KevinH]

Both weights have the same pattern. And both weights contain canes that are known in work from the Ysart Brothers period (and perhaps even pre-war years). But all of the canes in Simon's weight are known to me, whereas in Roger's weight I do not recognise the central cane, and the orange ground is heavily bubbled which is a feature I am uncertain about.

So I am still happy with my thoughts that Simon's weight is likely to be by Salvador Ysart and probably from the Ysart Brothers period, and Roger's weight might have the same attribution but could possibly be later. I would still like to know the shortwave uv fluorescence of Roger's weight.

[tropdevin]

***

Hi Kev.

I am not arguing against your conclusions, but I do not quite follow some of the discussion in this thread.

If the two weights discussed contain canes that could be from the pre-war years, then surely Paul could have made them? My (possibly flawed) understanding is that Paul and Salvador worked together from around 1930 to 1946, when Salvador left Moncrieffs. I imagine that both would subsequently have access to canes made during the 1930 - 1946 period, which may well turn up in paperweights made by either post 1946.  We do not know how many paperweights Paul made prior to 1946, but it was probably a lot: even if he only made some at the weekends (say about 20 a week, about 50 weeks a year) then he could have made 10,000 or more before 1946.

It is easy to identify with confidence canes that Paul did use, but unless we rigorously inspect every one of those 10,000 paperweights (including the ones we do not know about....), then we cannot be confident about which canes Paul did not use in that period.  I doubt that many of us have seen 100 Paul Ysart weights from that period, and even if we have seen 1,000 that may only be 10% of his output. This is an example of the well known contrast between 'evidence of absence' and 'absence of evidence'.

On a related theme: Paul signed some weights with a 'PY' cane, but as far as we know he did not use a 'PMI' cane (he was born Pablo Moreno Isart). We have never heard of or seen such a cane. But unless you examined every weight he made, you could not rule out the possibility - whereas if you found just one example of it, you could say confidently he did use it. I think this is sometimes called the 'Black Swan theory' when applied in other fields.

Alan

[SimonD]

Thanks Kevin and Allan and everyone else who's contributed to the discussion! Hope it's not getting too hot!

Without provenance, it might not be possible to determine an attribution. Balance of evidence is probably enough to form a working hypothesis, so long as you are prepared to change your view when further evidence comes along!

Aside from the canes and the design, are there any other factors to consider? For me (and I probably haven't held as many Ysart weights as Kevin), the shape of the dome seems much more similar to Paul Ysart weights than YB weights I've held, as is the height and lie of the canes. The pontil scar doesn't give much away, as I've seen similar ones in both Paul and Salvador weights.

[Roger H]

     Kevin, the colour observed under short wave is light green (smoky?).   This is my wifes observation as I see colours differently to a lot of people. 
       There was a program on the box recently I was told, which found out that different places of living change the colour perception of people. Living in the country, in the city, in the jungle etc made a noticeable difference.
        Regards Roger.

[KevinH]

Quote from Roger:

... the colour observed under short wave is light green (smoky?). ...

That sounds like it is the longwave result (from the type of uv light that most folk use), not the shortwave reaction.

All of the Ysart weights (excluding Paul's Caithness and Harland periods) I have checked under longwave uv show as Green, but can be various shades. All of the Vasart Ltd (1956 onwards) weights and all of the Strathearn weights I have checked also show Green under the longwave. Ysart weights from the periods mentioned show a shade of Grey under shortwave, but all weights from the Vasart Ltd and Strathearn years show as Blue under shortwave. Paul's weights from the Caithness years (with the exception of  a few special training items) also show as Blue under shortwave - but they are not Green under longwave uv.

So, if Roger's weight has a blue shortwave uv result whilst being Green under longwave uv, evidence indicates it was made after 1955 and therefore is not an "Ysart item". And for these purposes I refer to anything made by Vincent Ysart between 1956 and 1964 as being "Vasart" not "Ysart"). However, I suspect that a shortwave uv test would show Roger's weight to be "Ysart" - but without the check, and with that unidentified central cane, there is room for doubt.

Quote from Alan:

... I do not quite follow some of the discussion in this thread. ...

It's always difficult to cover the complex issues of "Ysart canes" in a few words - it's as hard as trying to be concise about the Walsh-Walsh-Old-English-Whitefriars conundrum! And I have still not made much progress with the possible article that I hinted at in another thread (which I can't find right now). I agree that it is not easy to draw a definite conclusion on some Ysart weights. But ...

I have said elsewhere that with additional weights purchased over the past few years I now have many more examples of very good "Salvador canes" but also that I now know that several of those can be found in some of Paul's work. However, where a "Salvador" cane is found in a PY weight, it is usually just one or two amongst many that are regarded as his own, and more often in closepack weights than in concentrics etc.

In Simon's weight all the canes are, in my opinion, of the "Salvador" type and as far as I know none are linked to Paul's work. That is a primary reason for my belief that Simon's weight is, on balance, one of Salvador's.

Maybe I will have submit a "buy at any cost" eBay bid in order to secure the weight for my own future analysis.

[Roger H]

  Hello, good evening and welcome.  I have a long wave and a short wave light. The weight of mine is strong green under long wave and light green (smoky) under short wave. To me this denotes Moncrieffs at some time if your observations are correct?
         Under short wave I see light green with a hint of pink, but I am odd with colours. Roger.
     Do you remember me saying about the scrambled weight that Bernd has or had on his site with the orange crunchie ground and the slice of a PY cane in it. Of course that doesnt mean that Paul made the weight, it could mean that someone in the place made it and threw it into the end of day weight possibly without noticing it at all. The two orange crunchie grounds puts them in the same factory, but when I still can't be sure.
             Regards Roger.