Topic: question re matching numbers engraved on decanters and stoppers

[flying free]

Question that has always puzzled me.
Can anyone say what significance the numbering system on stoppers and decanters for example, has,apart from that they match?  I've had a piece with a 2 on both, other pieces I've looked at have a 1 for example, I have another piece with a 5 on both....I'm just wondering do they relate to the number of pieces going out that day? or...what....thinking that I only see low numbers so presumably if you had a decanter with a 2 on it, it is feasible to find a stopper with a 2 on if they repeated the numbers daily if you see what I mean. 
I presume it means the neck of the piece was ground to fit that numbered stopper but I never hear or see high numbers as I would expect if, say, they were producing 100 of them in total, where I would think we might hear of one with 48 engraved on the stopper and decanter.  Or were these small run pieces basically?
m

[Lustrousstone]

Maybe it just means they were checked by No 5, as in the QC labels you get on clothes. They wouldn't leave the factory separately.

[flying free]

That's very plausible    I'm going to do a quick surf around the net and see what I can find.
m

[Paul S.]

the highest No. I can lay my hands on this evening is 28, but would agree with you, it's usually the lower figures.    I'd never reall thought about the significance of which particular digit - aside possibly from perhaps a run of Nos. for one particular pattern of decanter.    The reason being that evey individual stopper has to be matched to an individual body - and if you were knocking out, say a dozen or so of the same pattern, you couldn't afford to get the two parts mixed up           I've just looked at half a dozen FT's, and it seems Dartington didn't bother with matching Nos.                      Let us know what the real answer is m - when you find out.

[neil53]

Hi, numbering decanters and their stoppers started in early Victorian times and was used to match the two together in the days when manufacturing techniques were not as exact as they are today.  Production runs could be in many tens of units (the highest number I have in stock today is a stopper with 52 on it - unfortunately matched with a decanter with a number 12 on it!) and the small vagaries in the sizes of the necks of the decanters produced meant that stoppers had to be individually ground to fit.  They numbered them after grinding to make sure that the right stopper ended up in the right decanter.  Modern manufacturing techniques are so exact as to not require it.  Hope this helps.   

[flying free]

 Thanks I was just wondering whether or not the number pertained to the number of items produced in that design iyswim?  So a bit like the numbering system on a limited edition print as it were.  i.e. if one has a decanter numbered 3 on the stopper and decanter, does that mean it was the third one of that design produced, or was it just the third one numbered on that particular day, and the following day might again produce another number 3?
It's not a particularly burning question  but I've been curious as to whether or not one would ever find another number 7 stopper for example if one had the decanter but the stopper was missing.
m

[neil53]

Hi, my understanding was always that the numbering was for the particular production run and was for the benefit of the factory in matching the right stopper to the right decanter before it went out of the door that day.   Considering the output of some of the Victorian glasshouses I would be amazed if it was a numbering system for the design.  Interesting thought though!

[neil53]

Hi again, just one other thought that might be relevant.  The same stopper design was used for a large number of decanter designs, especially during the 19th century.  The same radially cut mushroom stoppers, for instance, were used on all manner of Prussian style decanters.  On the basis that the stoppers were made separately and then ground to fit the individual decanter, it makes sense that the numbers were used for matching individual decanters to stoppers rather than styles.

[chopin-liszt]

When Allister Malcolm made my claret jug, he told me that the stopper had to be made first - then the bottle neck is adjusted to fit the stopper - he said that's the easiest way to achieve a good fit.

However, I also know that at IowSG, they've got a sort of "boring" machine to get the inside neck of a bottle correct, to match the stopper size that is made - presumably that is ground to the correct size with a grinding machine too - so there should be a match between all stoppers and bottles.

[flying free]

Sue funnily enough I watched Allister doing that very thing whilst I was chatting to him at Broadfield house 
My contemporary pieces do not have any numbers on and I was told by a current maker that if I sent a perfume bottle back to them, they would make a stopper to fit but they were specific that they needed the bottle back to do so.

I suppose my curiosity is more on the Victorian pieces that have numbered stoppers and matching numbers on the neck or base of the decanter or bottle.

m