Topic: question re matching numbers engraved on decanters and stoppers

[Paul S.]

if one is a glass collector, one's siblings should be taught not to decamp without first checking that said decanters have their correct stoppers.
Best answer is to flog the lot before you shuffle off this mortal glass house  -  or at least make sure you've drunk the contents

[neil53]

Just read the excellent Charles R. Hajdamach's book on British Glass 1800-1914 which has the following to say about fitting stoppers to decanters:
"The process of stoppering the decanter was a distinct, separate trade performed by the stopperer who worked at his lathe, usually in the cutting shop where the decanters and stoppers could be passed directly to him after they had been decorated.  The job was performed in two stages: firstly the inside of the neck was ground and then the stopper was ground to match the neck.
The inside of the neck needed to be perfectly round in order to take the stopper and ensure an exact fit.  To do the grinding, the stopperer used a wooden plug about 6 in. (15.25 cm) long, fixed into the stoppering lathe and fitted with a tapered tin ferrule which corresponded to the required diameter of the neck.  A mixture of water and emery powder was dribbled on to the revolving plug as the stopperer held the decanter with the inside of the neck pressing against the plug until it was ground to the correct size.
The next stage was to grind the peg of the stopper to match the neck.  The pegs were made slightly thicker than required to allow the stopperer a little lee-way in the fitting stages.  On a lathe similar to those used by the glasscutters the stopperer ground the peg to a size just a little thicker than would allow it to fit properly.  The final stage was to grind the stopper directly into the neck.  The head of the stopper was fixed in a wooden chuck and fixed into the same lathe which had held the wooden plug.  The stopper spun in the lathe and water and emery mixture was used again as the grinding agent while the decanter was pressed against the peg.  The glass to glass grinding ensured an absolutely perfect fit.
When a large batch was processed, each decanter and stopper was scratched with a corresponding number, to prevent the wrong stoppers being placed in decanters when they were passed tio the warehouse to be cleaned before being sent off for sale."

Hope this clears up my point about the matching numbers being batch based rather than for a particular design.
Neil
 

[flying free]

Thank you Neil.  That's excellent reading.  Therefore potentially one could find a number of decanters in the same design with the same number.  Admittedly highly unlikely given the length of time passed now since this system was in place, but still it is possible.
m

[Paul S.]

quote from Neil.................."Just read the excellent Charles R. Hajdamach's book on British Glass 1800-1914"............in that case Neil, you get this week's prize for stamina  -  if only for holding such a heavy book for so long
In a slightly lighter vein, but nonetheless relevant.............. in Phelps Warren's 'Irish Glass'  -  he tells a story which came, apparently, from the early C19 letter writer Elizabeth Walpole, who relates a tale about a decanter and stopper from Waterford glass.
Her letter is dated 1834, and she relates how she is enclosing with her letter an account in settlement on behalf of one Sarah Wilson.     Apparently, Sarah had deducted 10d.  (a pre decimal amount equivalent to Sterling £0.05p) - when settling her account - for a stopper, which was charged (to Sarah) by mistake in Waterford, as in fact the stopper had actually come from Sarah in the first place.    She had sent it to Waterford to have a decanter made for it!
Bet that doesn't happen very often.

[flying free]

how very decadent....
m

[flying free]

ok, I know this has been discussed on more than one occasion, but I have two pieces both of which I think could date to the 1820s (could be totally wrong here and 100 years out lol, but everything about at least one piece is saying that early to me). 

They are not decanters, but both are enamelled, and I believe at least one is Bohemian, but unsure whether the other is French. Both have enamelled numbers on their tops and bottoms, presumably done by the person who painted the pieces.  One has a stopper.
  The other set has two numbers that don't match, but I can't believe it's not a match looking at the bottom (not a stopper but a lid).

So, my question is, do we know how early they started numbering tops and bottoms? 

I can conceive of it being at least as far back as 1850s as I know Richardson enamel signed some of their pieces and I think iirc I had a piece of pink opaline signed in enamel that was from Josephinenhutte and probably dated to around 1860. So they were using 'signatures' in enamel, but is it conceivable that enamelled numbered matches go back to the 1820s?

m

[Paul S.]

as I began re-reading this thread, I found myself unable to support Neil's comment - somewhere near the beginning - where Neil commented that 'matching Nos.' started in the "early Victorian period" -  so we're talking here of c. 1840 ish    --          I can only say that, having seen zillions of these things, this is not my experience at all.
I honestly don't think I've ever seen these Nos. on a bottle older than c. 1880 - 1890.
Many years back, whilst on hols. in north Wales, I encountered a decanter collector - who was about to make a purchase of a bottle - and rather flippantly I said "don't forget to check the matching Nos." - for which I was criticized heavily.         His reply was that in the earlier part of the C19 they didn't go in for such things.
From memory Andy McConnell's book doesn't give any useful dating on this practice of matching Nos.

On the other hand the digits or initials of someone's name, enamelled on the stopper and base of a bottle, may have a much older history, and probably do only refer to the pattern of the piece, or simply indicate the signature of the decorator  -  and is likely to have been more common on pieces from eastern Europe than elsewhere.        On the few pieces I've bothered to look at, I seemed to get the impression that stoppers for bottles with enamelled matching Nos. etc. didn't fit very well.             Perhaps it was just me looking at cheap Bohemian bottles

I'll have another look at Andy McConnell's book to see if it helps at all with this question.

[flying free]

'I'll have another look at Andy McConnell's book to see if it helps at all with this question.'


thank you
It's entirely possible I'm completely out on my dating and that both 'could' be c. 1880 ish.  But both the glass and the enamelling decoration and style are good for the 1820s.  It's not important, both were bought for decoration in my dining room  so are not for sale.  But I'm curious.

m

[flying free]

I've found an opaline decanter with stopper and enamelled numbers that dates to I think c.1860. 

Paul, in the case of my piece that has a stopper, it fits immaculately   and is enamelled and made immaculately but appears to me to come from c.1820s,maybe 1830s.
As I say,I could be years out in my dating though (it was a 'surprise turn-up' buy, bought for it's colour for decorating purposes, so I was pleased as punch when it arrived and I realised it was probably quite old).

m

[flying free]

ok,I'm not entirely sure how old this piece might be but the stopper appears to have a number 30 gilded on it
My first thoughts are 'quite old' i.e. at least early 1800s ... but ... I could be wrong.

http://www.ebay.at/itm/SELTENES-HANDBEMALTES-BIEDERMEIER-MILCHGLAS-KNOCHENGLAS-PARFUM-FLAKON-/291962543388?hash=item43fa52dd1c:g:KVwAAOSwA3dYNyxG

I think what's throwing me is that my piece is in extremely good condition.  There appears to be missing gilding as there are little flecks of it on close inspection, but apart from that none is showing on it at all, however everything else is immaculate really although looks old in the hand.
The pontil is snapped off and showing black around the pontil mark but then is beautifully enamelled with a number '15.' on it.
I'll post a pic once I've exhausted all avenues 
m