Topic: Vasart Monart ink bottle or neither ?

[KevinH]

Yes, I agree that shape HE is what it most resembles. But its size (large) is not in the Monart catalogue. If it was made in the Monart years, then it is a new entry for "size variation". If it was made in the Ysart Brothers (Vasart) years then it was "along the lines of the HE bottle".

So, who bought such an ugly thing with cracks all over it? Oh yeah, it was me ...

And it arrived with even more damage! Sadly it was posted with the stopper (which is heavy) taped into the neck and when opened, the whole neck was separate from the body. There are also two additional major cracks in the side of the body that was not shown in any of the listing photos.

I have settled the matter of the additional damage with the seller so this is not a problem that needs comment here.

For me it is still an interesting piece academically because it is the first Ysart bottle (which is not an inkwell) that I have seen decorated solely with millefiori canes.

The striped appearance to the neck is formed by stretching the upper row of canes from the shoulder and applying a slight twist. The effect is like an "experimental" form of the striping in the regular Vasart (1946 - 1956) inkwells. The interior has a layer of off-white (grey) which, due to the blowing, is more solid at the neck, then more sparse at the body and more solid again at the base. But it does not seem to be the fairly solid appearance of the off-white used in some early Monart pieces, but I have only seen a very few of those, so cannot comment much on that aspect.

However, the same type of (powdery) grey is known in some paperweights which I believe were made by Salvador Ysart. That may, or may not, be a help in shifting the dating of some of the paperweights. Much more research is required.

I will soon be purchasing some decent glue and spending some time doing "museum style restoration" - just for the fun of it and to try to preserve an interesting piece that might at some stage assist with the ongoing research into "Ysart oddities".

And for the record, under uv light, the clear glass fluoresces like other Ysart items from Moncrieff's and Ysart Brothers (Vasart), so it is certainly not Vasart Ltd or later.

[chopin-liszt]

 
It is NOT ugly. It is beautiful, perhaps not in the pretty sort of sense; it is ART.
It is something very, very special. 

[SimonD]

I'm always happy to own an unusual object, even if it requires some TLC. You've got a very nice item.

A few years ago I bought a nice period Baccarat weight from an auction house, who kindly offered to ship it to me. It arrived in a Jiffy Bag with no extra packaging or bubble wrap around it!

[Gary]

While agreeing the perfume bottle resembles the Monart HE shape but there are major differences, the main one being the HE has a steeper incline from the middle to the base, which gives Kevin's bottle a more plumper look, the neck the neck on Kevin's bottle appears longer (would need Kevin measure his to confirm one way or another).
This is some photos of my recent purchase of a Monart HE perfume bottle from eBay for the princely sum of one pound and twenty one pence(postage cost more), there is of course a lot of damage the stopper is stuck, cracks to the neck and two other cracks. The height is 4 3/4" from base to top of neck, which is size code V1+.
Gary

[chopin-liszt]

 
They're hand made, not mould-blown, such minor variations are only to be expected.

[KevinH]

For info ...

The three images below include size details of most of the main features. To keep the images uncluttered, additional size details are given here:

Thickness of glass at the neck = 7 mm; 5/16 inch (measured at break point)
Outside Diameter of Neck Rim = 44 mm; 1 3/4 inch
Outside Diameter of Neck = 33 mm; 1 5/16 inch

For the photographs the upper neck and inserted stopper, still wrapped in the clear sticky tape used for shipping, have been carefully balanced on the lower neck. Because of this, the appearance of the neck and stopper are slightly compromised.

[Edited 16 June to correct stopper diameter size in second image/]

[KevinH]

and more info ...

The four photos below give visual comparisons of the oddity bottle with a variety of Inkwells, all believed to have been made by Salvador Ysart, and a pre-war Monart IE shape perfume bottle.

Not only is it very clear that the cane decorated bottle is much larger than any of the others, but the Inkwells vary amongst themselves with regard to detailed shapes and sizes. This seems quite normal with these items, which are basically non-catalogue pieces (if there ever was a catalogue for Ysart Brothers work).

Looking at the IE perfume bottle, compared with the cane decorated oddity, it is obvious that the volume of the oddity is far greater than that of the standard perfume. Would such a large bottle have been intended for perfume? Or was it perhaps a water bottle or decanter?

[chopin-liszt]

Cologne?
A liqueur?
Does it have to be for anything?

[Gary]

From Kevins post on the sizes on his bottle, it clearly shows major differences in sizes between the Monart HE and Kevins Ysart bottle. The main ones are: the neck on HE is 21mm and on Kevins 27mm, the diameter at widest point on HE 117mm on Kevin's 139mm, the height from base to shoulder on HE 53mm on Kevins 71mm and the flat base section on the HE is 70mm and on Kevins is 75mm. With this in mind (and knowing Monart is hand blown and not mould blown). I am in no doubt that Kevins Ysart bottle is not the Monart shape HE.
If you put the photo of the HE and Kevins bottle next to each other there is an obvious difference in the proportions between them.
Gary

[KevinH]

Fascinating.

With due regard to the effects of the different photos (angles, distances from lens, etc.) ...

If we compare the oddity bottle with Gary's and also the actual item in the Monart catalogue for shape HE, there are differences between all of them.

The oddity bottle clearly has the least "rounded and tapered" shape to the body. Gary's has the most "rounded and tapered" body shape. And the one in the catalogue is somewhere between the two.

All of the observations in this thread are relevant for detailed analysis. But unless we can examine several examples together under the same conditions, we have no way to be sure of anything about the precise shapes and proportions.

However, taking account of the number of clearly differing variations shown in the ysartglass.com site for many Monart shapes, can we be certain the the oddity bottle is not a Monart HE variation?

Personally, I think it could be either Monart or Ysart Brothers (Vasart), but I am still of the opinion that it was based on the basic shape of Monart HE.