Topic: Thos. Webb 'St. Andrews' pattern for Stonier?

[Paul S.]

a sherry and whiskey tot with what I'm certain is Webb's 'St. Andrews' pattern - both in lead crystal - although I notice looking at the Discontinued Designs site, that their glass for Scotch is just a tumbler.         Quite a distinctive design with fan cutting and something similar to a  Brunswick Star.
The smaller glass carries Webb's backstamp for c. 1950 - 66, and the sherry shows just an upper case 'S' - which we've discussed before as indicating having being supplied from the Liverpool department store of Stonier.
Stuart were big suppliers to Stonier, and as Neil has pointed out Molineaux and Webb were their biggest supplier back in the late 1920's  -  so is it unusual to find that Thomas Webb were in on the act as well, or has someone already commented on that, and I've missed it?    All thoughts welcome, and thanks for looking.

[Bernard C]

Paul — an important discovery, which answers a question I have had about the Stonier business for a long time.

Obviously Stonier's salesmen pushed Stuart's patterns to maximise revenue for the combined family business, but what happened when a client of Stonier's, usually a shipping line, wanted non-Stuart Stourbridge glass?    Your discovery shows that the order came from Stonier's through to Stuart's as usual, who then ordered the glass, obviously specifying that the glass must be unmarked, from their Stourbridge competitor, probably at a very attractive discount.   Upon its delivery to Stuart, the glass was marked with whichever Stonier mark was available and then shipped to Stonier's.   The competitor, in this case Thomas Webb, was unlikely to have been told where the glass ended up.

This sort of business between glassworks probably took place fairly regularly, but little of the ephemeral evidence for it survives.   It is known to have taken place between the Manchester glassworks, who even filled gaps in their trade catalogues with their local competitors' products, but this is the first example I've come across for the Stourbridge glassworks.

Sorry about the two year delay — I've only just seen this post!

Bernard C. 

ps — a similar scenario might also apply to Fortnum & Mason's glass, known marked: "MADE IN / F & M / ENGLAND", but I don't think we've even established a preferred Stourbridge glassworks yet for the few examples known.

[David E]

Your discovery shows that the order came from Stonier's through to Stuart's as usual, who then ordered the glass, obviously specifying that the glass must be unmarked, from their Stourbridge competitor, probably at a very attractive discount.   Upon its delivery to Stuart, the glass was marked with whichever Stonier mark was available and then shipped to Stonier's.   The competitor, in this case Thomas Webb, was unlikely to have been told where the glass ended up.

That is rather speculative Bernard – couldn't the order have simply gone through to Webbs? If not, why not? Did Stuart have exclusivity?

[Bernard C]

David — I've considered all the possibilities I can think of, and can find no other explanation for the "S" on Paul's glass that meets the known information and makes sound business sense.

I suspect you may be thinking of a slightly later sandblasted "S" which is found most frequently on Webb amethyst mugs and cream jugs.   This "S" has pointed ends and fat verticals, quite different to the nice even width of line of Paul's earlier "S", which I think is acid-etched.   I've seen speculation on the GMB about a reason for the Webb sandblasted "S", but we just don't know.   Certainly none of the examples I've seen are obvious Seconds.   There's one on ebay at present also marked with the 1966–80 Webb mark (dates according to GreatGlass).   This could be Stonier as well as the earlier mark, either supplied direct or via Stuart's, but I think it unlikely as, by then, the luxury shipping line business must have been in serious decline.

Bernard C.