Topic: Green glass dump paperweights with clay figures in them encrusted cameo sulphide

[flying free]

Not entirely sure what to call these types of weights, but does anyone know what period they date to please? 
The ones I'm referring to are those at the front of this group I've linked to that have little clay figures in them. I've read as much as I can and still can't really get a fix on dates.  Are they late Victorian? I've got that they started being made around 1830 but when did they stop being made - I presume they were made until bottle manufacturing went completely automated but when would that have been?

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/thirteen-various-green-glass-dump-late-19th20th-5025675-details.aspx?intObjectID=5025675

I saw one of these ages ago and didn't win it and I've been curious about them since.  There aren't that many around, I seem to come across the same ones over and over on searches, boy on elephant, children, cherub, thistle and leaves but not many more available in terms of images on google using my searches.  I've been using Sulphide and encrusted cameo dump etc but mostly what comes up are the flower ones.  I've just bought one with some sort  of figure of a lady carrying something in it, but it's difficult to tell from the pics(and I've no idea what condition it's going to be in).
It's similar to this one here but smaller but she looks like it's the same figure - scroll down to 12th item  http://www.collectorcity.co.uk/Glassware,Metalware,Tableware.htm

Thanks for any help  .
m

[keith]

According to one book it was first attempted c. 1750 in Bohemia but was perfected by a Frenchman in the late 18th,then made all over in the early 19th,Apsley Pellatt,Baccarat and Clichy all made them

[flying free]

Thanks Keith    that start date of early 19th links with what I've read of around 1830 if I recall. I think these green bottle glass dumps though are quite different to their 'posh' friends from Baccarat and Clichy aren't they? 
What I'm also curious about is who made the little clay figures to go in them.  Who was sitting there at the end of the day in the bottle factory and thought 'I know, I'll make one with a boy on an elephant in today'... and where did he get the clay figure from? The posh ones seem to be based on medals or I suppose cameos of some sort ( the royalty heads) but where did these more rustic ones come from.  Also are they generally British if they are green?  or were they made elsewhere on the continent?
m

[keith]

Had a look through some more books and apart from a couple of Scotsmen in the late 18th called James and William Tassie who made wax portraits and then cast them in plaster the wax is then removed,molten glass poured in and then mounted on sheets of glass,other than these nothing info' care of Sotheby's Concise Encyclopedia of Glass.

[KevinH]

Keith's summary info on the initial "cameo incrustations" refers to early attempts at using ceramic embedded in glass (in France, and soon after patented by Pellatt in England). But at that time the inclusions were not of the type seen in the "Dump" weights and doorstops.

The reference above to the Christie's completed sale shows a dating of late 19th to early 20th century, which is about as accurate as it gets for these items, especially for the terracotta versions.

Although Dump weights are mentioend briefly in various books, I know of only three main references which deal specifically with the subject:
- A series of three articles by William Drew Gaskill in the Bulletin of the PCA (members only)
- A self-published book by Peter M Sellers (see his entry in the Book forum)
- A book by Mary Skotnicki & Gregory Warren Wilson (still available through Amazon etc)

[flying free]

Thank you Kev      I did manage to find the William Drew Gaskill papers online    Not sure if they were complete...well I found two anyway (2003 I think?).  I 'd found the self published book, which sounds to be the most appropriate, but not the other so I will investigate.  I may have to try and get the book. But I end up buying these books and discovering I might have one piece pictured out of the entire volume - I know they are very useful and also very interesting, but it makes my pieces go from being quite a cost effective buy to extortionately expensive  and in the case of paperweights, I have a handful left that are curiosities rather than a collection if you see what I mean.
It's a dilemma 
m

[tropdevin]

***

If you go for a book on dumps, I recommend Mary Skotnicki's as by far the best - she has probably the best collection of dumps in the world, and the book shows some very unusual pieces, as well as the more common place (she used to fight Bill Gaskill for anything rare...).  It does not give current prices, of course - which are perhaps a third or less of what they were 10 years ago for the run of the mill designs.

Many of the sulphide dumps, foil dumps and 'bubble' dumps are mid to late Victorian, and from many glass factories in the UK. However, they were made through to the 1960s in at least one factory.  The hardest to find are signed 'Kilner' or 'Redfearn' with an impressed seal on the base.

Beware of very clean, relatively tall pieces in pale blue-green glass, with tiers of flowers and with a flat  ground base. These came in by the crate load a few years ago, all the way from China, and were offered for sale as 'Victorian dumps' at ludicrously high prices by a number of sellers on eBay and at Antiques Fairs. Quite a few people were taken in...but thankfully they seem to have all been sold now.

Alan

[flying free]

Thank you Alan.  I shall investigate the book and thanks for the extra information on the 'new'weights.  I'm not attracted to the flower pot ones, it's just the ones with figures in them really and there don't seem to be many of those around at all unless I'm not using the right search terms.
m

[tropdevin]

***

Hi.

I think you are right that the sulphide dumps seem to be uncommon - I have not come across that many in the last 15 years. I don't think it is your search terms!

Alan

[flying free]

ok thanks  I've been using all sorts of key words but still all I've found is about 5. Perhaps the two authors you mention have them all.  I can't wait for this one to arrive.  I'm desperate to get some good photos and have a look at what they are really like.  I do think the image is the same one as that one I linked to curiously, it's just a smaller piece and she isn't stood on a 'pedestal' thing from what I could make out.  I wonder who she is?  She looks like she is either throwing a cape round her shoulders or carrying something with one arm above her shoulder and over her head sort of.  I'll post pics when it arrives.
m
There is a Florence Nightingale here - I'd read about her but not been able to find her (page 9 I think on the link)
http://www.dvpaperweights.org/newsletters/pdf/dvpca_march2004newsltr.pdf
m