Topic: Sowerby 1877 glass creamer marked DEPOSE

[mhgcgolfclub]

A Sowerby creamer clearly marked with trade mark and date lozenge for 31 May 1877 but this one is also marked DEPOSE.

I can remember a thread about pieces being maked PATENT but cannot remember seeing an early Sowerby piece marked DEPOSE.

Roy

[neilh]

Found this comment on eBay:

Occasionally in the world of antiques, you may come across a mark, DEP, which could mean either Depose or Deponiert. This mark is commonly found on German or French bisque dolls, celluloid,  porcelain, jewelry, glass or metal goods. Dep stands for the German word Deponiert which means registered, or copyright. Dep is also a shortened form of Depose which is French for registered.Without knowing a manufacturer or country of origin, it is safe to say that if your item is marked DEP, it is most likely of French or German manufacture.

[Paul S.]

and the answer is...............if you look in Slack, page 45, there is a black and white pic. with the following caption.........
'Rare butter dish' bearing the word 'DEPOSE'.   Design registered by Sowerby's 31 August 1877.  Trade marked.    Length 6.5/8" (16.9 cm).   Manufactured in Gateshead for the continental market'.
Judging by the similarities of the handles of the butter dish and Roy's creamer, also the frosted looking finish, then it would seem that both pieces are from the same suite.
Slack also adds (page 30) that "by 1889 the company had showrooms in Hamburg, Brussels and Paris".

Ref.      'English Pressed Glass' 1830 - 1900   -   Raymond Slack   -   1987.             Essential, if you collect pressed glass.

[auliya]

I just acquired a covered dish in this pattern, and I was searching for any information when I found this thread.  Not sure if it is a butter dish or not, perhaps a bit small? It has exactly the same registration markings except for 9th May 1877. It measures 6.5 inches by 4.5 inches overall and about 3.5 inches to the top of the lid. Would it be the same as the one mention in the book by Raymond Slack?

[Paul S.]

glad that you've posted again on this matter - gives a chance to put right some possible errors which your comments have thrown up

firstly, are you sure it's the 9th of May on your lozenge - might there be the chance that you're looking at the parcel No., rather than the date.............there doesn't appear to be a registration from Sowerby on the 9th of May 1877, but there were three on the 31st, all of which were parcel 9?

Very unfortunately, it didn't occur to any of us to quote the Rd. No. for Roy's creamer, which might have helped avoid what I believe to be an error in Slack's book.
Roy quoted 31st May (and I believe yours will be the same date), and having now looked at the Kew images for that date, and cross referenced to some extent with Thompson/Slack/Cottle and Sheilagh Murray, it seems that Sowerby made three Registrations on that date.
These are:

No. 310595  -  (Cottle's 'angular vase'  -  Slack's 'rare butter dish')...........appears to be identical to this most recently posted item (factory pattern 1224)
     
      310596  -   similar design to 595 but smaller lidded item (possibly a lidded sugar) with pedestal and foot  -  another of Cottle's 'angular' items (factory pattern 1231).     
     
      310597  -  A spill vase (in Vitro-Porcelain possibly) with parrot and tree in moulded relief (factory pattern 1217)                 
      This last item is entirely unrelated, and so will be ignored for the remainder of this note.
     
       (The above factory pattern Nos. are taken from Cottle, who states that all three are shown on page 3 of Sowerby Pattern Book No. IX        (June 1882).              Whilst it's true that page 3 of the Pattern Book does show these three factory Nos., the shape of both 1224 and 1231 appear unrelated to the Kew images for Rd. Nos. 595 and 595.
Of course, this might be an example of Sowerby Registering the design only, and not the shape.             Looking at Pattern Book IX, you can see why Cottle keeps saying 'angular'  -  did this author look at the Kew Board of Trade images - or did he look only at Sowerby archive material?            Had he looked at the Kew images, then we might have assumed his comments to have been otherwise.

Roy's creamer (for which I've yet to find a Kew image) plus 595 and 595 above, are all related by design - with this short reeded effect around the edges and the stippled/frosted ground  -  it's always possibly that Sowerby didn't Register an image of the creamer, although from what I've seen other factories appear to have included whole suits of shapes where the pattern was identical.           I may have missed seeing the creamer, so will look again.

So...........we appear to have a suit of table items.........a creamer, a possible butter and a (possible) lidded sugar  -  and there are other Sowerby items around that period that have a similar reeded edge with frosted ground that could be design related.

Coming back to the probable error in Slack, it does seem that the date he quotes is questionable, especially as he shows nothing corresponding to this in his list of Rd. Nos. at the back of his book.         I'm also unable to see a Sowerby Registration for 31st of August in any of the other books. 
It's a shame also that the matter is made more difficult to unravel by the fact that Cottle's references are to images of pieces (from the Pattern Book) that don't match with the corresponding images from the Kew Rd. Nos.

I'll post pix of the Kew images for Rd. Nos. 310595/6/7 shortly  -  from which it can be seen that this butter appears as No. 310595.

sorry this is long winded  -  it's a pain correcting these matters - so many references to check etc., and so many more manholes for the unwary to fall down

[auliya]

Thank you Paul. I am embarrassed to say I mucked that up and you are correct, the date on my piece is the 31st May 1877, 9 is the parcel number. Thank you also for the information - I look forward to seeing your images :-)
regards
Auliya
Brisbane Australia

[Paul S.]

no problem Auliya        

Here then are images from the National Archives of the U.K., for Registrations Nos. 310595/96 and 97 dated 31st May 1877.

I sense things might not be entirely clear - having now linked Simon Cottle's details of the Sowerby Factory Pattern Nos. to these Rd. Nos.       

As I've already mentioned, the accompanying pix from Kew (relating to the first two Rd's.), do not tally with the shape of Simon Cottle's factory pattern nos. that he relates to the same Rd. Nos.            Cottle speaks of items of 'angular' design, which as you can see are different entirely to the Kew pix.

Can however tell you that since my last note I've looked at Glen & Stephen Thistlewood's CD Volume Three - 'A Celebration Of Sowerby', and notice that your item is shown on page 6 of 'Illustrated Pattern Book No. XI - 1885 - page 6, and is listed under butters with factory pattern No. 1221  - so no doubt as to its intended use.
With regard to Kew Rd. 310596, this is also shown in Pattern Book XI (once as an open sugar on page 49, then again as a lidded sugar on page 59), and on both occasions carries the factory pattern No. 1221.               This would suggest that Sowerby were registering the design only and not the shape on the 31st of May 1877.
I wonder if we can persuade Glen to re-issue her CD's to incorporate the corresponding Registration Nos.

This doesn't make us any wiser as to the Rd. No. of Roy's creamer - although it might not be unreasonable to suggest it also carried the factory pattern no. 1221.            I've looked through the catalogues, but not confident of seeing it  -  it may have been an item dropped by the time of the 1885 factory catalogue (the start of Glen's Sowerby period), having been Registered originally in 1877  -  might not have been successful  -  really don't know.

Neither can I find pictures of Simon Cottle's two small 'angular' pieces with factory pattern Nos. 1224 and 1231 any later than Factory Book IX dated 1882  -  maybe these had also gone by the time of Book XI in 1885.             Looking at drawings of both in Book IX, they don't appear remotely to have the reeded borders with frosted/stippled ground, so I'm unsure why Simon Cottle linked these two with Rd. Nos. 310595 and 96.

Don't know whether this has made things any easier or not.............I don't know if you have any of the commercial books/CD's I've mentioned  -if you collect Sowerby they are essential I'd suggest, although even with them things are still confusing..........too many cooks perhaps. 

Anyone ................  feel free to criticise, comment, praise, yawn, pick holes in etc., as you wish.

[bfg]

excellent points of reference Paul, many thanks for sharing -particularly the Kew archives as I doubt I'll ever get the chance to visit.

Really must chase down a CD at some point, I note many people use it here.

Mel x

[Paul S.]

hello Mel.              The Sowerby CDs from Glen and Stephen Thistlewood are essential if you collect pressed glass, and they are a wonderful source of information - a great piece of work and of benefit to many of us.           Well worth getting, although I'm not sure if they are still available.
The pressed glass factories from the north east of England, Sowerby and Davidson in particular, have been documented and researched far more than most, and I get the feeling there is perhaps less interest in them now than say 20 years ago.
At the moment collectors seem more keen on the smaller factories from the Manchester area, and it may be true that there is less known about those, so any good pieces you find do send in your pix

[agincourt17]

I wonder if we can persuade Glen to re-issue her CD's to incorporate the corresponding Registration Nos

Perhaps this may help (and it's free!):

I have started a whole gallery of reference photographs of Sowerby glass items ordered by Sowerby pattern number, cross-referenced (where appropriate or available) with their registered design numbers, registration dates, and Sowerby pattern book references (E&OE) at:
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/thumbnails.php?album=1001

So far there are 290 images, and I am trying to add more all the time.

Glass Queries Gallery members please feel free to add more images, but non-members can refer to the gallery anyway.

In addition, for those Sowerby designs that were registered, I have endeavoured to add their RD numbers to the GMB RD database gallery at
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/thumbnails.php?album=763
and have cross-referenced  with details of the Sowerby pattern numbers and Sowerby pattern book.

In both cases, there are many photos of Sowerby’s registered and unregistered designs that don’t appear on the Thistlewood CD-ROMs.

Fred.