Topic: Onion Carafe or Decanter without....

[petet63]

....the Stopper. I saw this last week and it was still there this morning so thought I would have a look. It is 19 cm in height and  around 42 cm circumference. The pontil is polished with some wear where the carafe touches the surface. Is it a Decanter without stopper ? I dont see any marks for a stopper being used. It has a flared lip and a ridge that looks like a glass could sit over it but that doesnt have any wear either. It has 8 Lobes. It weighs 750g.   

[Ivo]

It does look like a tumble up to me. The tumbler would not necessarily have left a mark on the ring.

[petet63]

An impossible task is finding the glass  I haven't seen this style before and would like to see what the glass looks like.

[Paul S.]

I'd suggest this is a serving decanter which also acts as a measure - to be taken to a customers table containing a specific quantity of spirit. 
In view of the heavy ribbing on this example it's just possibly of Scottish origin rather than English, but can't be sure.        There wouldn't be a stopper with this decanter, and no drinking glass resing on top.
The measure would be filled to the level of the upper neck ring, and there were a number of set sizes of these things - starting with a 1/4 gill and rising to 2 gills (1/2 pint) generally, although copper measure were made in far larger sizes, I think.    As always, the Scots and English capacities (c.c.)  differed for the same designated measure, and so you get the Scots giving you only 53.25 c.c. for a 1/2 gill, whereas the English equivalent would give you 71 c.c. (Imperial).
This example seems unusually tall - but as a general rule, they seem to be typified by having this very thick neck/rim and the neck rings which provide the level indicator.       Some are marked with their capacity, but many are not, and date wise this might be anywhere between 1880 and 1920, and it seems they never had a pouring lip of any kind.                        See the link for similar items........
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,49321.msg278130.html#msg278130

You can determine the capacity (in gills) by.......... filling to the top of the upper neck ring, and emptying into a container which will read off in c.c.'s.
Rather than tabulate all the Scottish and English c.c.'s for the equivalent gills - or parts thereof  -  if you tell us how many c.c.'s you have, should then be able to tell you what gill measure this is supposed to be (hopefully)

Ref. 'Whisky Dispensers & Measures' by Brian Brooks - published 2000  (there is an almost identical example in the book which is stated to be 11 cms. tall with a capacity of one Scottish Gill).

[petet63]

Paul, you never fail to amaze with the depth of knowledge you have  .  I will get this sorted as soon as I get home. I am going to enjoy doi.g more work on this piece and another piece of knowledge in thememory bank, all I need is to remember where I keep putting it !!
     Could the difference in measure sizes be a factor in the Scottish stereotype of the  "Canny Scots". A lot of sayings and phrases usually have roots in real life.   Thanks Paul.   

[Paul S.]

It's really the value of good books that is responsible, most of the time - without them I'm a bit thick.       I know some people here disapprove of book info., but I see no problem provided sources/authors are quoted, plus it's a good way of learning.

Culturally the Scots cherish the differences that set them apart from the English (as demonstrated by Mr. Salmond's current efforts) and it may well be that their habits of thrift have origins in their former times of desperate poverty.             However you wrap it up there is a universal view that those north of the English/Scots border are known for their pecuniary meanness, on occasions - so might this give rise to differences in these measures ?? -  sorry, don't know .

Hope you don't object, but I've added three pix to your post, which may be of interest.            The first shows the top rim of a small (8.75 cms.) whisky measure which uses a subtle method of indicating the level, which very easy to overlook, and which I thought originally a very poor attempt at decoration.     Short, irregularly spaced notches cut around the underside of the rim, do apparently indicate that the fill level must be right up to the very top.

Other pix shows 11cm. example, without any indication of fill level, and with masonic square and compasses over upper case H & C sitting over figures 377.      Decoration is slice cutting around neck, and with ground/polished pontil to base.          Perhaps it was filled to the base of the slice cutting??    Good condition and slight greyness to glass.    If anyone has any thoughts would be glad to hear.

[petet63]

I have measured the amount of liquid it holds. it holds 650ml to the top ring and 600ml to the lower ring. My conversions to gill dont make sense. It has a few "stones" in the glass and some imperfections. The pontil is well polished. No marks at all. I will have some time on Sunday to really take a good look. Thanks for the help so far. It is appreciated as is the knowledge.

[petet63]

Just found this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Georgian-Glass-Drinks-Measure-c1830-/261010633571

[Frank]

@ Paul....  Mr. Salmond tell me more

As to this lump I was going to suggest a modernish French cafe thingy but cannot compete with eBay so will keep mouth shut 

[Paul S.]

I'd agree that 0.65 of a litre sounds a lot of liquid for a whisky measure/decanter - and as mentioned at the beginning, 19cm. seems to be outside the range of spirit measures in the books that I can see - the tallest being 14 cm.            It's true that on the 'serving decanters' there is often a neck ring to indicate the level, there are equally as many that have less obvious means which indicate full capacity, and looking again at the positions of these 'indicators' many are placed at positions on the body well below neck rings.      This would then provide a capacity less than Pete's 600 ml.            Perhaps this example might be looked at again to see if there are any signs of notches, discreet mitre cuts etc. on the bulbous part of the body, which apart from the height is identical in design to known examples of spirit measures, from the period in question.

Stopperless, decanter shaped spirit measure do, apparently, go back to c. 1800, so would seem nothing untoward in there being a Georgian example offered on ebay, although what provenance is provided to substantiate this one I've no idea - it does look very similar to the example here, but then maybe designs never changed.         I have respect for this particular seller, and would trust his judgment, usually, but the whole area of spirit measures/decanters is less well documented than many, so really not sure on this one.

Are there any illustrated similar examples which would have been used as modern French cafe thingies, with ground polished pontils and including some stones??         I stand ready to be corrected, always, and have been often.              The design, shape and thickness of tumbles and up and carafes appear much different to these chunky pieces, and the heavy external ribbing is a feature typical of the older measures.

And as for Mr. Salmond, I'm all for nationalism, but perhaps he should remember Johnson's words to Boswell............"the only thing of any use that a Scotsman sees, is the road to England"         (I really am only joking, don't take it seriously, please - with a name like mine I'm half Scots, it's just that I'm not sure which half)