Topic: Decanter ID please

[beechwood15]

I purchased this decanter at a small antiques fair today and wondered if anyone could give me an idea of it's age as the seller didn't know. There is a number 9 etched inside the top of the neck and on the stopper so does this mean it's the original stopper as I did wonder because it wobbles a bit.  Many thanks.

[luv2collect.com]

There would have been a number etched on the stopped and the decanter neck to match them up so that should be the right one though maybe it has been filed down if chipped or broken ?

I would guess it as being probably a Georgian Ring Neck Decanter though no way of being sure , check very very carefully in all angles of light on the bottom for any signs of an acid etched makers stamp , sometimes you can get lucky !

Andy
www.luv2collect.com

[Paul S.]

technically, the matching (or tie) Nos. are not etched  -  they are applied with a stylus of sorts and in effect scratched on by hand, and it's amazing how good a fit the stopper can be on older quality decaners.           If the stopper carries the number on the end of the stub, then this suggests that it hasn't been cut down  -  although a replacement stopper may well have been made, and this would be unlikely to fit as well as the original.          However, as you say the Nos. do match, so it's likely to be the original stopper. 

The age of decanters may sometimes be assessed in several ways, although not all are reliable .............

Does the glass look white and bright........does the cutting look too precise and appear to have been acid polished (the 'feel' of the cutting will lack sharpness - if you are unsure of this feature, go to an antiques source and feel the difference between old cutting and modern work).
Late C18 - early C19 decanters fequently have a 'grey' tint to the glass.                      Are there stones/seeds in the glass.............what is the extent of wear?
Of course, if you do find an acid backstamp, then almost certainly not Georgian.
You don't mention whether or not this has a star cut base  -  a feature which can help with dating, depending on the number of points.
16-point stars are supposed to indicate c. 1830.........  24-point for c. 1830 - 40...............  and 32-point for c. 1840 - 1860.
And  -  whilst radially cut mushroom stoppers are certainly a Georgian style, they didn't have flat tops.

Appreciate Andy's comments about the Georgian 'neck rings' - but regret this feature has been copied ad infinitum and well into the C20.         To me these don't have the look of Georgian rings, and large diamonds are something else that appears on work well up to recent times.
The scale cutting is quite attractive, and not that common  -  hollow diamonds were a Georgian feature, but I'm really clueless about dating some of these other decorative features  -  perhaps Kevin will have a look for you.           

If you're worried about the wobbly stopper, go and buy some valve grinding paste from Halfords  -  it really does work, but wash it out completly before drinking from the decanter - carborundum is very sharp and can dangerous if ingested

Sorry this really doesn't help you, but thought a few ideas on dating etc. might be of interest.

[luv2collect.com]

The numbers on the stopper and decanter are etched by hand which is what i meant paul not acid etched , I agree with you on the date though it is probably a lot newer than georgian and just copied in that style as we have had a couple in our store which definitely had more of a grey almost black tint to them. The points on the star are interesting too never come across this before ? is it confirmed anywhere just checked the bottom of one we are selling at the moment and it has 32.

thanks for the info

Andy
www.luv2collect.com

[Paul S.]

hello Andy

since etching is a very specific acid process, and not the method used for decanter Nos., then probably best to avoid using the word in instances like this. ....... but yes, certainly applied by hand.
I'm not really sure that I was committing myself to a date............  decanters can be misleading when viewed on the screen only - styles and cutting designs have been copied for so long - they need to be treated with caution, I think.       It may well be more a case of colour, seeds/stones, and the overall cutting patterns etc..........     blazes, neck rings, base star cut, whether the cutting is too good to be true etc., and much of this can be seen only in the flesh.
Early base stars (prior to c. 1820), were made by two passes of the wheel  (if you look at the point you'll see frequently that the tip is unequal  -  one cut being slightly longer than the other, thus producing a point which is not symmetrical).        As for later stars where the mitre cut is made by one pass only of the wheel, there should be very pointy points  -  it does seem that they provide a reasonably accurate method of dating.           However, again caution is needed, since later copies can mis-lead.
I'm really not sure about this decanter  -  the scale cutting on the shoulder seems to be quite uncommon - it might be anywhere from c. 1860 onwards, and might well even be C20  -  and, of course, not necessarily British.

One other,rather obvious, feature of the 'matching Nos.' is of course the style of their script  -  some late C19 Nos. can be quite florid and stylized - and don't forget that the moment you see unusual looking 'fours' or 'sevens' then pound to a franc it's not from the U.K.

Refs.            'The Decanter - An Illustrated History of Glass'  ....   Andy McConnell  -  Antique Collectors Club  -   2004.
               
                    ' The Hallmarks of Antique Glass'  ......     R. Wilkinson   -    1968.       (details of dating features i.e. star cuts, neck rings, feet,   
                     handles, bowls, cutting patterns etc. etc.)