Topic: Unusual mark on glass tumbler

[rose de verre]

Hi
Here is a tumbler, English or Irish [ most likely Irish ] which is cut with broad pillar flutes and has a high foot rim, very heavy indeed, I would guess it is 18thc, and with a lot of wear to the foot  and with this strange mark which I have tried to picture - has anybody seen anything similar ? It looks like a bird on a nest of flames !!! Any suggestions welcome !

[petet63]

Phoenix Glass Company Stourbridge area ?? I can't see the mark clearly

[Paul S.]

hello.......   I would think it unlikely this is an C18 tumbler  -  this 'bird bath' base is typical of much later production.           C18 glass tumblers were made by hand, and examples should show remains of either a pontil scar, or possibly a very large, shallow, depression where the scar was ground/polished and removed.          Bases on earlier pieces were usually flat, and fairly consistent with a thickness of between a 1/4" and 1/2" thick, with a height of rarely more than about 4".          This is, of course, a generalization, but does apparently seem to hold good for most tumblers.

I could be wrong entirely, but are you sure the panels are cut - they do have the appearance of moulded decoration.? 

Regret I can't help with the base mark

[agincourt17]

Looks like a phoenix rising from the flames to me too.

From the photo, the tumbler has the look of a pressed or moulded piece, and I suspect mid-to late 19th century rather than 18th century.

The mark, though, is not the phoenix mark of the The British Heat Resisting Glass Co. Ltd., Bilston, Staffs.whose products, under the brand name "Phoenix", were introduced in the 1930s and bore a strong resemblance to Jobling's “Pyrex” wares. See:
http://www.blackcountrymemories.org.uk/phoenix/phoenix01.htm

Might it be the mark of The Phoenix Glass Company, Monaca, Pennsylvania, USA, formed in 1880 (and which eventually became Anchor Hocking)?  See
http://scripophily.net/phglco.html

Fred

[Paul S.]

I feel sure it's a pressed tumbler, and I suspect from the last 20 - 30 years of the C19.           Must admit I've not seen that many U.K. pressed examples from that period, but don't recollect anything with that sort of base mark, so would think it's not unreasonable to suggest it's from the States.
Pressed tumblers from their beginnings (around 1830's) and for a couple of decades or more, are sometimes recognizable by the constriction of width at the base of the inside.         Apparently the punger was given a more pointed front end to assist with ease of pushing its way through the molten glass.........it seems flat ended pungers, understandably, needed a lot more effort. 
Presumably they must have cracked the problem at some point, since later tumblers have flat bottomed insides.           

[rose de verre]

Hi
Thanks for all the helpful pointers. Yes, you are right, the tumbler must be pressed - got carried away there ! Had a pressed blue Victorian tumbler for years but it had a star base nothing like this one - no sign of restricted width inside, although it could be American. The mark is curious tho' - late 19thc you might expect the makers name to be there somewhere. All the best. 

[Paul S.]

whatever its origins it's a good genuine C19 tumbler and worth having in any collection.           None of the States collectors have yet offered their advice on the mark - hopefully they will.                 The States were a little ahead of the Europe in the pressing game, and they may have had slightly different methods etc.
This is a good example to add to the Board's 'Glass Gallery Marks for future reference, so hope you can arrange at some time.

When similar decoration is cut (as opposed to pressed), you should be able to see some feint remains of the grinding wheel on the glass  -  most of the time no matter how careful the polishing, some slight evidence of those lines caused by the grit remain visible under strong light.
These lines will be at ninety degrees to the long axis of the tumbler.

U.K. published books on C19 drinking glasses (including tumblers) are almost non-existent, but John A. Brooks small booklet, despite running to only 32 pages, is well worth having.         Title is 'Glass Tumblers - 1700 - 1900, and would imagine it's reasonably inexpensive. 

[Sid]

Hello

My 2 cents.  If the concensus is that this is indeed late 19th century, then I would look at the UK or Europe.  The practice of cutting a trade mark into the mould or plunger was much earlier there than the US.  For example, Sowerby, Davidson and Greener were marking their glass ware in the 1870s while the first firms in the US to mark their glass consistently were Heisey and Northwood around 1900. 

Sid

[Paul S.]

it's not to say Sid that we couldn't be mistaken with our suggestion of dating, just that marks from our own backyard tend to be images that are known to someone on the Board here  -  U.K. pressed material has been studdied enough for it to be very difficult for a mark such as this to sneak by un-noticed till now.              Re the possibility of this being States pressed glass, if this were a mark - even from a later period, then imagine you would probably have seen it, although appreciate that the quantity of small pressed factories your side was much greater than here.

utility tumblers can pick up a considerable amount of evident wear, often quicker than most other glass items - so there is the possibility this isn't as old as we might believe.

Can't find any evidence yet to suggest it's from the U.K.  -  so the Continent perhaps then.

[rose de verre]

Hi
In response to Paul S's reply re the wear on the tumbler - I had already tried to explain the wear on the base as he does, a tumbler gets used a lot, but it is a key factor as you will know in trying to date a piece of glass. I am posting 2 pics here as a comparison - this is my moulded Irish decanter. [ pride & joy ! ] It is probably Waterford and definitely early 19thc, it is pictured in Westrupp's book Irish Glass a history, page 266 I believe. Now the wear to the base is the most wear on any piece of glass I have - had plenty of use ! - and so is the wear to the tumbler. I could push the date for the tumbler forward from the 1820 [ decanter's age ] to say 1860 or 70 - another 50 years of wear ! but NOT to the last few decades of the 19thc and certainly not into the 20thc [unless its been faked ! ] My instinct is it was made right here in Ireland. Could be wrong, very often am !!!