Topic: Hand blown crystal decanter - Unknown markings

[Otis Orlando]

Hi,  can anyone help me identify this small facet cut decanter.  All facets differ in size and no one is the same. Within the pontil area, there is a signature (U M C J) and directly below this no.s (3104).   Please note, I am not sure that I have read this correctly and hope someone will be able to help confirm or correct this reading.  The height of the decanter is 17.6cm, the rim 4.1cm @ largest point.  The thickness of the rim is uneven too.    Pontil measures 2.7cm dia. and is polished and concave.    The base dia. from point to point where the facet cuts ends is 10.6cm.   Just below the rim of the decanter (neck), that measures approx. 2.6cm before it meets the curved end of the facet cuts, under magnification around that area, are what I believe to be horizontal striation lines.   The base area that meets a flat surface shows extensive signs of wear.  Note, there is no stopper .   I'm not sure whether it should have a stopper.  The only reason is, I cannot see any wear around the internal neck area.     Your help is greatly appreciated.   

[antiquerose123]

Wonder IF Paul S may know.....he's a world of knowledge too!!

[Otis Orlando]

Yes! it would be interesting to find out Pauls thoughts on this decanter.   .   I'm just at a complete loss with this on. 

[Paul S.]

regret that most of the time you could wade through my deepest thoughts without getting even your ankles wet - it's just that I can make it look good, occasionally, after using the thoughts of others (it's amazing what you can do when you have a lot of books).

pieces such as this are difficult to determine, and bearing in mind the height, it might almost qualify for any of the following categories........miniature decanter, individual serving carafes, liqueur decanter - but the height suggests it's not a regular decanter and the lack of stopper wear might mean a cafe piece.         As for shape, I don't think it's a shaft and globe (not quite enough prominence of shoulder) - could be a prussian, which was very common in the C19.

Could well be wrong, but looking at the number on the base, the 'four' made me think possibly Continental script rather than British  -  but as for the letters really don't know........might indicate the name of some commercial establishment/hotel or similar, or even a masonic reference.
Your use of the word signature is o.k. in this instance, as the letters are applied by hand  -  as opposed to being a mechanically applied acid type backstamp  -  not that it's got us anywhere.
Assume there isn't another No. around the neck area.
From what I can see of the glass, it looks quite clean and clear  -  most of the C19 decanters that I've seen, unless cleaned deliberately, are often cloudy and lacking that clarity - so possibly not as old as you might imagine.

the horizontal lines on the flutes/slices (assume you mean on the outside) are probably remains of the original grinding marks.     Believe I'm correct in saying that most cutting of this nature is produced by the wheel being at right angles to the long axis of the object  -  in other words with the glass standing upright, these line will appear horizontal, not vertical  -  makes it much easier to work on curved surfaces when producing flats/flutes/slices.             Obviously, with prismatic and step cutting there's no option  -  it has to be that way.                  If you imagine trying to cut the stem of a drinking glass with the wheel lying in the same direction as the stem, it wouldn't take long for the wheel to bump into the base of the bowl or to collide with the foot  -  net result.. ruined glass. 

The presence of the depression on the base suggests this wasn't intended as a high end piece  -  lacks the cut star etc.         I'm tempted to think Continental, but honestly am really only guessing.
Age wise, your'e the best judge since you have this in front of you............is the colour bright and white or darker, are there seeds anywhere in the glass, and does it have that hand made look (think you said the neck looked uneven).         It might be anywhere from 1850 to 1940 - shapes and cuts have remained unchanged on some items for a long time.

you could always put a cork in the neck and use it

[Anne]

Not that I think it helps you much, but the only reference I've been able to find to UMJC is a religious one: the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations http://www.umjc.org/

I'm idly wondering if the letters that look like JC could in fact be Of and if this might be an Orrefors piece...  it reminds me of this one: http://images.replacements.com/images/images5/china/C/orrefors_orrefors_figurines_giftware_no_box_P0000014962S0052T2.jpg

[Otis Orlando]

Hi Paul,  I have collected many decanters over the years, but this particular decanter, that's if it is a decanter like you have mentioned, has left me totally bewildered.   Looking at the decanter again and having a second opinion, the shoulders are different. One slightly higher than the other.  The facet cuts are different in shape and height of points are irregular around the circumference of the top area of the bowl.   This along with info. within my initial description, would IMHO suggest that it is hand made.  I have only washed the glass prior to taking pictures, using my assistant 'fairy' and a sponge  .   Having left the decanter to dry, I have noticed that around the internal of the bowl, is definitely cloudy and dense in some areas.   A few seeds are definitely visible, well that's what they look like and this is in the neck and bowl area.  They do not protrude on the outer or inner area, but one shows a minute indentation in the glass around the seed. 

Still researching this decanter, I did come across some genova design decanters where some had a very similar style and shape, which would suggest as you have mentioned, continental.  I will try and see if I can find them again.    The style of cuts with the points are definitely similar.   The only difference was the amount of facet cuts around the actual decanter varied. There are 12 on mine.

 [quote  author=Paul S. link=topic=54178.msg307333#msg307333 date=1379690903]
        As for shape, I don't think it's a shaft and globe (not quite enough prominence of shoulder) - could be a Prussian, which was very common in the C19. [/quote]

I currently unable to find any examples that might persuade me, that it maybe East German, but will bare this in mind.

Sometimes we take things for granted and must say, I am very grateful for the detailed info. you have provided regarding the positioning of the grinding tool in order to get the cuts and how it would not be possible to do it any other way.  I now have a better understanding, as it does clearly makes sense.

Having compared this decanter to other glass, I would definitely say 19C. That was my initial thoughts, but did not want to be presumptious.

Not that I think it helps you much, but the only reference I've been able to find to UMJC is a religious one: the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations http://www.umjc.org/

I'm idly wondering if the letters that look like JC could in fact be Of and if this might be an Orrefors piece...  it reminds me of this one: http://images.replacements.com/images/images5/china/C/orrefors_orrefors_figurines_giftware_no_box_P0000014962S0052T2.jpg

Hi Anne,  the inscribed lettering is UMCJ not UMJC and looking at the suggested sites you have kindly provided, has not convinced me in the slightest.   I just can't see any comparison and hope Paul or anyone else can help support me on this.   I just feel this in not the path I should be persuing, sorry!  I am very grateful for your help though. 

Oh! before I forget.   Note: Within the pontil area, just above and to the right of the inscribed lettering already mentioned, there is, under magnification, what looks like the letter n p.   The second stroke of the n at the lowest point joins the stroke on the lowest point of the letter p.   The P looks rather larger than the n.   I hope I have explained that o.k.  .  I've just looked at the pictures posted and it does show it.    I hope this will help.