Topic: Two old or Georgian ale glasses ? help please

[brucebanner]

I put these two in a different post a couple of days ago, they were found with two others in a junk shop the other two i gave to my mates, there 5 1/4 inches in height 2 3/8ths across the rim and 2 6/8ths across the base no inclusions or seeds and wear to the rim of the base and rough pontils, any help welcome please, regards Chris.

[Paul S.]

All of these dwarf/short ales are shoved in the category described as 'rudimentary stems'  -  I'm unsure if there's really a distinction between short and dwarf, but they seem to be anything from 4.5" to about 7" in height, but perhaps the shortest should be described as dwarf.               They usually ring well when flicked.
Yours appear to have welted/folded feet which was more common on the earlier examples - similarly the foot being wider than the rim is an indication of earlier in the C18.       

These things must have been made in their droves, they remain quite common even after all these years.

As a type of glass they seem to span more than a century in terms of manufacturing date  -  early C18 examples have propeller knops and wrythen/flamiform moulding with domed folded feet, and later in the C18 the wheel engraving starts and it appears almost always to be like this one, with an ear of barley and hops plus leaf.
Toward the very end of their run they keep the same engraved motifs, but now include bladed/annular knops in the middle of a short stem - probably about 1820/30 ish.     Reading the books, I get the impression that the moment you see a bladed type knop in the middle of a stem, then you're looking at post 1800.

Surprisingly not that easy to date some of these things  -  Bickerton includes two examples with this sort of typical engraving, and he says late C18/1800.          In view of the folded foot there's a possibility these might be a tad earlier, but I'm not sure, and would like others to comment on the date aspect.        I'd have suggested somewhere between 1780 and 1820, which isn't very helpful.

Bickerton is the better book for illustrations - they're bigger and clearer than Barrington Haynes, but the latter is vastly better on text.                But you should have both anyway, by now.

[bat20]

I had a glass with a folded foot and blade knop dated about 1800 and there was a folded foot revival about that time....i think.

[brucebanner]

Thanks for that Paul, the ale must have been very strong for such a small glass to be used. I'll get the two books you have mentioned, the Silber and Flemming is like a Victorian Argos catalogue, beautifully illustrated book.

[neil53]

Hi, if you are interested in dwarf ales (so called, as Paul rightly says, because of their short stems) then there is a small booklet called "Dwarf Ale Glasses and their Victorian Successors" by Stephen Parry which is extremely helpful in determining their timeline.   The folded foot did come back into fashion about 1820 but as to whether the featured glass is earlier or later obviously comes down to the wear, metal etc. as it always does with old glasses.  The good news is that I am not aware of any later copies having been made of this type (as opposed to their wrythen brethren) as the cost of engraving them would likely exceed the cost of an original. 

[Paul S.]

Think this has crossed with Neil's, so hope he won't object if I've doubled up on anything.

I believe that bat is correct re c. 1800 -1820 for the revival of the folded foot.........think Peter also made that comment some time back, although such pieces aren't perhaps easy to verify - dating of drinking glasses from later in the C18 and on into the early C19 needs care.........        partly not to confuse them with earlier patterns and partly to avoid modern copies.
The bladed/flattened knop in the middle of the stem seems to be one way of determining which century.                 Most periods in history are littered with the fashions and styles of earlier times, or at least the best of the bunch. 

Ref. my quote ...........   "Bickerton includes two examples with this sort of typical engraving, and he says late C18/1800" (from the Rudimentary Stem group).........         should have included the fact that neither of the two examples he shows has a folded foot.              The fact that he included only two engraved dwarf ales from this Rudimentary Stem group - plus the dates he gives - shows that he considered them to be late in the period of these ale glasses, and of a common form.            The fact that he doesnt include an engraved piece with a folded foot (within this group) may indicate that he didn't want to confuse later (Regency??) revival styles with features from earlier in the C18 (see below).              That's just my opinion though.   

Bickerton does, however, include another group - 'Plain Straight Stems'  (drawn stem/bowl construction) where you will see genuine short/dwarf ales from c. 1740, which as you'd expect do have folded and domes feet, and which also have similar engraving of hops and barley.
So folded feet and barley/hops engraving occur at widely differing times and care is needed to remember which characteristics apply to which period so that you don't get the date wrong.                 

I don't know to what extent there has been C20 copying of these late C18 ales - as a type they seem not to excite the collector in the same way as do some of the high end wines etc.

Most of the books seem to suggest that alcoholic drinks from the C18 were very strong, and bowls mostly were correspondingly smallish, but suppose you could always get a refill.

Regarding the books  -  E. Barrington Haynes is a paperback and should be as cheap as chips - poor quality paper (not acid free so it goes that dirty shade of yellowey-brown) - as far as I know never issued as a hardback which was a shame.
Silber & Fleming is great even if only for browsing to see what the Victorians created for the home - amazing stuff.
Bickerton is a modern book and costs rather more  -  it's one of those Antique Collectors' Club volumes, but really worth having.

P.S.    apologies this is long-winded, and if I have anything wrong please shout pronto.

[Paul S.]

Thanks Neil for the pointer re the Parry book - will get that one soonest.    cheers.

Please feel free to comment - adversley or otherwise - I get it wrong, often.